Original title: "Peter Schiff: Why Gold is Superior to Bitcoin!"
Guest: Peter Schiff
Original translation: zhouzhou, BlockBeats

Editor's note: This podcast revolves around Peter Schiff's views on Bitcoin. Schiff is a well-known gold supporter who has believed for many years that gold is the real currency, and Bitcoin does not have this attribute. Bitcoin is popular because it attracts investors as an emerging technology, but its value has no real basis and may eventually be replaced. Although cryptocurrency may be superior to gold in some aspects, it should not be regarded as a real currency. But at the same time, Schiff emphasized that Bitcoin should not be subject to strict government regulation because he believes that individuals have the right to use their own funds, even if it is a risky investment.

In this podcast, the following core issues are mainly discussed:

1. Why does Schiff think Bitcoin is a "scam"?

2. What is the value of gold relative to Bitcoin?

3. What is the trend of the current stock market?

4. What is the real value investment in Schiff's eyes

TL;DR

Gold's monetary status:Gold is the most powerful currency in history, and its practicality and scarcity make it a long-term value storage tool.

Bitcoin's flaws:He believes that Bitcoin lacks intrinsic value and cannot be compared with gold. Although it has certain technical advantages, it may collapse in the future.

The combination of the Internet and gold:Schiff believes that the Internet and blockchain technology can enhance the liquidity of gold, but will not change the fundamental value of gold.

The Federal Reserve and the economic outlook:Schiff advocates the abolition of the Federal Reserve, warns of a possible economic crisis in the future, and calls on investors to shift part of their wealth to gold.

Wealth Growth Advice:He recommends wealth accumulation through entrepreneurship and prudent investing, emphasizing the importance of gold and other traditional assets.

The following is the original text of the conversation (the original content has been deleted and reorganized for easier reading and understanding):

Ryan: Today we are not exploring the frontier, but returning to the world of gold. Bankless invited Peter Schiff as a guest, who was spoofed as a person who is always bearish on Bitcoin in the crypto industry.

David: Peter's love for gold may be stronger than Michael Saylor's love for Bitcoin.

Ryan: Peter is a financial commentator and economist who has outspoken views on many things, such as the global economy, financial markets, government policy flaws, and the shortcomings of the fiat currency system. However, Peter is firmly bullish on gold and skeptical of cryptocurrencies. We have some consensus with Peter Schiff, such as the value of hard currency and the depreciation of fiat currency, but we have very different positions on Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies.

We talked about Bitcoin vs. gold, but also touched on his views on U.S. fiscal policy, such as whether the Federal Reserve should be abolished, what Schiff would do if he became president, and other interesting questions. The question I care about most in this episode is actually for David - how does Peter store his gold?

Peter Schiff: Yes, gold is real money. For those who, like me, are worried about fiat currencies, central banks, inflation, and debt, if they are looking for a real means of storing value, as well as a medium of exchange and a unit of account, there is actually no need to reinvent the wheel, gold can do it.

"Gold is the real money"

About money

Ryan: How do you define money?

Peter Schiff：I refer to the classic definition and believe that currency is the most marketable commodity. Looking back at history to understand the origin of currency, we did not always have currency. Before the emergence of currency, humans traded through barter, but this method was very inconvenient because it required the needs of both parties to coincide. Eventually, people discovered that they could choose a commodity that everyone was willing to accept as a medium of exchange. Even if you did not need this commodity, you could use it to exchange for other things you wanted.

People begin to accept a commodity not because they need it themselves, but because they know that others may need it. This is the process of inventing money. But to become a currency, it must have many characteristics, which also excludes the possibility of most commodities becoming viable currencies. Many different commodities have been tried as currencies for hundreds of years, but in the end, gold was the most successful.

Gold has the characteristics of portability, divisibility, immutability, and non-corrosion, which are all required for currency. Bitcoin attempts to replicate the monetary properties of gold, but they miss the most important point, which is the intrinsic value of the commodity itself - the currency must be a real commodity and must have its own value.

Although Bitcoin has these characteristics, it is difficult to become a real means of storing value because it lacks the actual value behind it, because it has nothing to store itself. In this respect, Bitcoin has many similarities with fiat currency. Legal currency is usually backed by real assets, which is also the basis for the formation of the earliest monetary system: currency is backed by real assets (such as gold) because no one wants to just accept a piece of paper. However, since paper money is backed by gold, it is actually a warehouse receipt for gold. People are willing to accept paper money because they know that they can use it to exchange for gold in a warehouse. Paper money is essentially an IOU, a proof of ownership of gold.

Later, governments invented ways to create fiat money, which is no longer backed by any real assets. The government stipulates that fiat money is legal tender, and people start using it and paying taxes with it, which is like a tribute to the government. However, the real source of value of fiat money does not rely solely on government orders, but on confidence and trust. People have to believe that this currency will continue to be widely accepted in the future as it is now. In fact, it is this trust system that gives fiat money its value. Governments have, to some extent, contributed to the formation of this belief that money is valuable. However, many governments have also devalued their currencies by losing the trust of the public and becoming worthless.

So Bitcoin is similar to fiat money in this respect, both of which derive value from trust. The difference is that the value of gold comes not only from trust, but also from actual demand. Gold is not only used to make jewelry, but also widely used in electronics, dentistry, and aerospace. In fact, gold has many more potential uses, but it is too expensive. There are many other tasks that gold can perform better. However, because gold is extremely scarce, people only use it when necessary.

However, Bitcoin lacks the necessary practical use. It is just a token that people buy because they hope that someone will take it over at a higher price in the future. There are already thousands of similar tokens, and there will be countless more to create in the future. They may have different names, or even be better in some aspects, such as cheaper and faster. In fact, there are already some cryptocurrencies that surpass Bitcoin in technology. But to me, these are worthless. The future of blockchain should be backed by real money.

Just as fiat currencies are backed by real money, in theory there can be a cryptocurrency backed by real money. You can tokenize gold, but the token itself is not gold, but rather represents ownership of gold. I can transfer ownership of gold to you digitally, quickly and at almost no cost, which is more efficient than transferring Bitcoin. The key difference is that when I transfer ownership of gold, I give you a physical asset, while when I transfer Bitcoin, I give you nothing but the expectation that it can be resold at a higher price in the future. This is the fundamental difference.

Many people call Bitcoin "digital gold", but this is as ridiculous as calling a picture of a hamburger "digital food". You can't survive on "digital food". Similarly, the value of gold lies in its physical properties. Only physical gold can be made into jewelry or conduct electricity. "Digital gold" cannot replace these practical uses.

Some things can be digitized, such as music and books. We can listen to digital music and read e-books without physical presence. But things that rely on physical properties, such as food and gold, cannot be digitized.

Ryan: Why has gold become the end point in the competition of currency evolution, and there will be no better currency than gold in the future?

Peter Schiff:For hundreds of years, gold has been the best form of currency, and nothing is better than it. Of course, you can use other things as currency, it doesn't have to be gold. If people are willing to use other commodities as currency, I don't object. But other commodities can't do it. In prison, cigarettes are currency, but not all prisoners smoke.

Bitcoin has no practical use, nor is it an evolution of currency, but a regression. Historically, alchemists tried to make gold, and Bitcoin is just a modern version of this attempt, known as "fool's gold." Its essence has not changed because of the blockchain, but it has just packaged an old scam in a new way-a pyramid or Ponzi scheme.

I admit that Bitcoin may be one of the most successful Ponzi or pyramid schemes ever, and it may continue for a while, but it may have peaked. The price of Bitcoin is down more than 30% (in gold terms) from its peak three years ago. Despite a lot of hype, such as El Salvador adopting Bitcoin as legal tender, Michael Saylor's promotion, various ETFs, NFTs, Super Bowl ads, Wall Street's entry, and even the Republican Convention, Bitcoin has not hit new highs. This shows that a lot of money has been selling Bitcoin in the past few years, and those who are selling are obviously smarter than those who are buying.

Those who succeeded may have bought Bitcoin early, knowing it would be hyped, but to realize their wealth, they must eventually sell Bitcoin and turn "paper wealth" into "real wealth." This is exactly what is happening now.

I feel sorry for those who bought Bitcoin in recent years, they will lose a lot. These people became "buyers" in a pyramid scheme, allowing those who entered the market early to profit. Bitcoin does not create any real wealth, but wealth is transferred from buyers to sellers. And it is a negative-sum game because in addition to the transfer between buying and selling, you have to pay miner fees and the cost of hype around Bitcoin. Just like a casino, the commission is huge, and even some "winners" may become losers in the end.

Ryan: Some people think that gold has a history of 10,000 years, while Bitcoin is only 15 years old, and the market value has reached 1.2 trillion US dollars, accounting for about 15% of gold. Isn't this a success?

Peter Schiff:You just proved my point, Bitcoin has only been around for 15 years, come back to me in 1,000 years and see if it still exists.

Ryan: If Bitcoin is used to pay for network transactions, can it also be considered a means of exchange, similar to the commodity properties of gold?

Peter Schiff:Yes, I can send you my Bitcoin, but this depends largely on the existence of a future Bitcoin market, which may not exist in the future.

Ryan:This is indeed a bit circular, and there are other blockchains that can do the same thing with their tokens, such as Ethereum, so this is not unique to Bitcoin.

Peter Schiff:Indeed, gold has unique properties that cannot be replaced by other metals, which is why it is widely used. If other metals could perform similar tasks but not as well as gold, people would choose other metals because gold is too expensive. However, Bitcoin lacks this uniqueness. By analogy, when you search, do you still use Spyglass? I don't even remember the name of the search engine in the early days. I mainly use ChatGPT now instead of Google.

Ryan: I agree with you, I have started using ChatGPT instead of Google for many things.

Peter Schiff： Yeah, you're still using MySpace, Facebook replaced it, and then Instagram came, TikTok came, and there's always something better.

It's completely ridiculous to think that Bitcoin, invented by Satoshi, will always be the greatest cryptocurrency and will not be improved. Anything invented by humans can be improved. Gold is different. It was not invented by humans, but naturally produced. It originated from supernova explosions and existed at the beginning of time.

About Value Storage

Ryan：Do you think Bitcoin has the potential to become a store of value like gold?

Peter Schiff： In fact, tokenized gold works better on other blockchains because the fees on these blockchains are much lower than Bitcoin. Therefore, I don't necessarily need the Ethereum blockchain to support gold tokens, I can choose other more competitive blockchains. While the blockchain itself has value, the value of these native tokens is questionable.

Ryan: Do you think Bitcoin is worth more than zero?

Peter Schiff:Yes, while Bitcoin may have some value, it is not worth $60,000. For example, I made an Ordinals and put it on the Bitcoin blockchain. When I first sold it, I also included an autographed original print with the Ordinals. So not only did you own a physical object, you could hang it on your wall, and it was very scarce because I only made 100 and never made them again.

Ryan: You mentioned that the value of fiat currency comes from people's trust. Isn't the value of all currency based on trust?

Peter Schiff：No, because you don't need to "believe" in an actual commodity like gold. The value of gold comes from its widespread demand for practical applications. Its value is almost unquestionable. This is its "bottom line" value. The market value of gold is approximately between 1 trillion and 1.2 trillion US dollars.

Bitcoin supporters often say that 10% of the market value of gold comes from its metallic properties, and the rest comes from its role as a currency. But in fact, almost no one uses gold as a currency except central banks. People store gold because of the actual demand for it in the future, not because of its monetary properties. We are constantly discovering new uses for gold, and the demand today is much higher than at any time in the past.

So the price of gold reflects its value for long-term future use, and no other commodity lasts as long as gold. That's one of the reasons why I think the price of gold is still low. The current price of gold is almost at a premium because it is not yet widely used as money. I think the world will re-monetize gold and return to the gold standard. Once that day comes, the price of gold will inevitably rise significantly.

Ryan: When talking about gold and its advantages, how do you recommend people actually hold gold? Is it directly custodying gold bars, buying tokenized gold, or through financial instruments such as gold ETFs? Which method is the best choice?

Peter Schiff: I have a platform called ShiftGold.com that handles this. Shift Gold sells actual shipments of gold, and you can directly store physical gold bars.

Ryan: You mean actual gold bars and gold nuggets?

Peter Schiff：Yes. Some gold coins must be minted by the government to be legally called "coins". A private mint can make gold into round objects, but it cannot be called a "coin" unless it is legal tender. For example, the United States, Canada, Australia and other places have legal tender gold coins, but private mints can also mint round gold products, but they cannot be called coins. They are called "round gold". We sell gold bars, gold coins and silver coins directly. I recommend people to hold physical gold and silver, especially if you are preparing for some kind of doomsday scenario, such as hyperinflation.

Ryan：But how much can you hold? For example, I want to buy $250,000 worth of gold coins. How much gold can I store at this scale?

Peter Schiff：It can fit in a shoe box and there will be a lot of room left.

Ryan: Would you send $250,000 worth of gold to my house in a postal package or something?

Peter Schiff: Yes, and the packaging is very concealed, and there will be no "gold inside" logo. We have been selling gold at Shift Gold for over ten years, and there has never been a case of loss or theft. The gold has always been delivered safely. But silver is large and very heavy. For example, a customer bought $300,000 worth of silver during the epidemic, which took up a lot of space. Gold can be easily put into a shoebox and is more convenient to store. This is also one of the reasons why gold is better as a currency, because it is easier to store than metals such as silver, not to mention copper. Imagine how much space it takes to store copper.

Ryan: Let's say I want to buy $300,000 of gold, how do I keep it safe?

Peter Schiff: You can hide it somewhere in your home, as long as you don't forget where you put it. Or you can use a safe deposit box, don't lose the combination, don't lose the key. But if you want to have a third party to keep it, Shift Gold can help you arrange storage services in Switzerland, Dubai or Singapore.

You can also choose Wall Street products, such as buying gold ETFs. However, in this case, you don't own gold directly, but you own shares of a public company that holds gold, which is very similar to how some people deal with Bitcoin. Interestingly, the original selling point of Bitcoin was self-custody and no third party involvement, but now all the demand seems to come from third-party custody, and they also charge storage fees.

Has the Bitcoin bubble finally burst?

Compared to gold, Bitcoin "no longer has an advantage"

Ryan: Would you admit that Bitcoin or cryptocurrency is superior to gold in some ways, such as it is easier to transfer on the Internet?

Peter Schiff:Yes, but the problem is that the reason why Bitcoin is so easy to transfer is that you are actually transferring nothing. When I send "nothing", it is of course much easier than transferring "something".

Ryan: I think you may be too obsessed with this "physical" element, which does not seem to be so important to many listeners, especially the younger generation. We think that "having entity and weight" is not so critical on the digital Internet. Even feel that gold has physical properties in the real world, which is a bit of a negative factor for me, which means it can be stolen.

Peter Schiff:No, this is exactly why it becomes a currency. Remember our discussion at the beginning, it has to be a commodity because Bitcoin could collapse at any time. The reason it hasn't collapsed yet is that there are more people who want to buy Bitcoin than want to sell it, and there is enough buying overall to sustain the market.

Ryan: Bitcoin is indeed a relatively new asset, but the same is true for gold - you have to have interested buyers to keep the entire market going. However, I will admit that gold has an advantage, which is that it has thousands of years of history to support it.

Peter Schiff:Not only is there thousands of years of history, there are now many industries that actually need gold and have been buying it, it's an actual, real-world need.

I just showed you my gold jewelry, it's a huge industry, and while there are a lot of people online who have digital girlfriends now, maybe you can give them digital gold, but if you want to have a girlfriend in the real world, you'll buy her real jewelry, which you can't do with Bitcoin. The only reason people want Bitcoin is because the price is going up. When the price stops going up, everyone will want to get rid of it.

Ryan:Since we are talking about exchanging IOUs (IOUs) instead of physical assets, tokenized gold is not ideal compared to actually holding gold. So how exactly does the Internet improve the way gold is held?

Peter Schiff:Paper money initially made gold more accessible, especially in legal circulation. Direct delivery of large gold bars is neither convenient nor easy to handle for small transactions. As a result, people invented smaller forms of currency such as gold coins and silver coins.

Private enterprises then introduced the concept of paper money, which was initially issued by goldsmiths as warehouse receipts or IOUs for gold. This is similar to the small ticket you receive when you deposit your coat, proving that your coat has been deposited. In this way, paper money replaced physical gold and facilitated circulation and trading.

The value of paper money comes from gold. Although paper money itself has no intrinsic value, it has become a better form of currency because it is backed by gold. Economics calls it a "currency substitute."

The Internet has further improved this, and banks can now replace physical paper money with digital tokens, which can exist on a blockchain (public or private) or not rely on a blockchain.

This makes gold more efficient as a medium of exchange than ever before, becoming faster, more divisible, and less costly. However, many people believe that blockchain technology has made gold obsolete and that Bitcoin can replace gold, which is a misunderstanding. Even if Bitcoin dies, gold will still exist and may continue to run on the blockchain.

Ryan: However, even tokenized gold still requires trust that the issuer really has enough gold to back it up, and you have to trust the entire legal system to protect your property rights, which is incomparable to actually owning physical gold and keeping it yourself.

Peter Schiff: Yes, that's why you shouldn't hold all your gold in this way.

But you can store your gold with a very trusted third party who may also provide insurance in case the gold is lost or stolen and is backed by a reputable insurance company and possibly even reinsurance.

I understand that one argument for Bitcoin is that if you custody the Bitcoin yourself, rather than through an ETF, you don't need to rely on a third party. But even then, you still need to trust that the market will continue to accept Bitcoin. You have to trust that the system will continue to work, and I'm not willing to do that. I'd rather hold gold, even if I have to rely on a custodian to keep it, than worry about whether Bitcoin will lose value.

It all depends on market perception. Even if Bitcoin has some value, like $1,000 per token, I'm skeptical about its actual value. When I say "value," I mean actual value, not just market price. Market price reflects what buyers are willing to pay, and if someone is willing to pay $58,000 for a Bitcoin that's actually worth only $1,000, you could lose a lot of money. If you bought Bitcoin at $58,000 and it ended up at $1,000, which is almost zero, the remaining portion of your money that lost 99% is almost insignificant.

David: If the reason you value gold is its use in productive companies and its inherent demand, why not invest directly in these productive companies that generate cash flow, dividends or income instead of investing in gold?

Peter Schiff: I do invest in gold mining companies. I am very interested in gold mining stocks and think they are very cheap relative to the historical valuation of gold and have a lot of room for future growth. But at the same time, these stocks are much more risky than directly holding gold. Wall Street's investment in mining stocks is currently low, so I think this is a real opportunity, although there are risks.

I recommend investing in these stocks because I expect gold to rise sharply, which will drive the rise of mining stocks. Although gold may have a short-term correction, the long-term trend is still upward. Compared with other assets, gold has greater return potential and relatively less risk. Investing in gold mining company stocks may bring higher returns than directly holding gold.

For Bitcoin investors, if you are looking for high returns, gold mining stocks may be a better choice. The best investment strategy is to diversify, and my Euro Pacific Gold Fund is managed by industry expert Adrian Day, who has extensive experience. If you have a discount brokerage account, you can consider investing in this fund. In short, if you are uneasy about Bitcoin, gold mining stocks may be a more promising choice.

GenZ Alternatives

Ryan: Given that millennials and Generation Z are more inclined to use digital technology and cryptocurrencies rather than traditional gold, are you worried that this will affect the future of gold as a store of value?

Peter Schiff:I am not worried. First, I think young people will mature and understand the value of gold over time. As they accumulate wealth and face economic realities, they may realize the reliability of gold as a store of value. In addition, although young people are interested in digital currencies, Bitcoin is not backed by real intrinsic value, unlike gold, which has historically been a stable store of value. Moreover, when inflationary pressures increase and fiat currencies depreciate, the true value of gold will become more apparent.

Bitcoin is currently popular because it is a new and trendy technology, but this craze may weaken over time. Eventually, investors will return to assets that have stood the test of time.

Even if young people don't wear gold jewelry, they have gold in their phones or other electronic devices, and they may not realize they actually have gold. I think the demographics work in my favor because all these young people are getting older, and as they get older, they get wiser and learn from their mistakes. So these 20-somethings may be into Bitcoin now, but when they get into their 40s, they'll turn to gold.

Everyone thinks they know better when they're young, but they're actually naive and don't know the real truth. But these things come and go, nothing new. As I said, it's just a repackaged scam that collapses every time it's tried, and it's still the same no matter how you repackage it.

Ryan: If technology advances allow us to find cheaper materials to replace gold, and the price of gold increases 10 times, would that potentially prompt us to look for alternatives or reduce our use of gold?

Peter Schiff：Don't forget that the prices of other metals are also rising, and gold's unique properties are difficult to replace in many industrial applications, and even if other metals are found, they may not have the stability and reliability of gold. The price of gold needs to rise to very high levels before it will have a substantial impact on these applications.

Ryan： Do you think the free market should determine the outcome of these monetary experiments, or should governments make Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies illegal to prevent them from becoming Ponzi schemes?

Peter Schiff:I believe people have the right to do what they want with their money, including taking losses or gambling. I support that freedom, and I would not support banning sports betting, blackjack, or poker. But if someone loses money due to false advertising, I think they have the right to pursue legal action, especially from financial media that promote Bitcoin, and ultimately, many people may seek compensation for these false promises.

While I oppose current anti-money laundering (AML) regulations, believing that they violate privacy and could lead to totalitarianism, my opposition to these rules extends beyond Bitcoin, and I do not believe that Bitcoin is a security, but that may change in the future. Some tokens do meet the definition of a security, including the government's Howey test.

Increasing regulation of Bitcoin has undermined its original advantages, which initially allowed anonymous transactions, decentralization, self-custody, and low transaction costs. But now, these advantages are no longer apparent.

When Bitcoin went to $1,000 in 2017, I started to look at it, but ultimately didn't buy it because I thought the upside potential was gone, and even if it had the potential to go to $200,000, the gains weren't attractive to me compared to the risk that it could collapse. I'd rather put my money into gold mining stocks, which have greater upside potential.

About Wealth and Investment

Ryan: I want to get back to the basic question that we all agree on, should we abolish the Federal Reserve? If so, why?

Peter Schiff:Depends on what we replace it with, if we abolish the Federal Reserve and don't introduce any replacement institutions, and go back to the system before the establishment of the Federal Reserve, I'm all for it. Before the Fed was created, we had a lot of regional banks, they were privately owned banks that issued paper money backed by gold, and no bank was given any special privileges over other banks at the time, it was completely free market competition. If we could go back to the system before the Fed was created, we should absolutely abolish the Fed. The problem is that if we abolish the Fed and just give the printing presses to Congress and let them print their own money, it would probably be worse.

Ryan: If you were president, what would your economic policy be?

Peter Schiff: My goal is to undo existing policies. I once ran for Senate and of course I didn't win. But I said at the time that my goal is not to do anything new, but to undo everything. Because every time I repeal a law, I restore some of the freedom that was taken away by the law.

I want to reduce government as much as possible and eliminate agencies and departments that should not have been established. I will work to restore the Constitution and its original ideals - a very limited federal government with few and clear powers, and I want government to operate within the framework of the Constitution.

At the same time, I will be honest with the American public about various social welfare programs, such as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. We will eliminate these programs. The Social Security system is a Ponzi scheme run by the government, which makes it worse than a Ponzi scheme in the private sector because people are forced into this scam and more people will lose money in the end.

Of course, I will find ways to help those who are in trouble because of the Social Security system. Without Social Security, they may not be in such a difficult financial situation. If the government had not taxed and promised Social Security, they might have saved their own retirement funds. So while Social Security cannot be eliminated immediately, we can set standards and introduce new welfare programs, such as annuities, to protect their lives.

But for wealthy people, I don't want to determine whether to receive Social Security based on income. People with wealth, such as homes and stock portfolios, should not receive Social Security because they have enough wealth to be self-sufficient.

I am not willing to use the poor's money to subsidize the rich's inheritances, nor do I intend for the poor to pay for the rich's inheritances. We need to be honest with the public and eliminate these benefits and get the government out of banking, education, and healthcare. I want the free market to manage healthcare and education, just as the government is out of the tech industry. The tech industry thrives because of the absence of government, while healthcare and education suffer because of government intervention.

Also, I would choose to default on the national debt because we cannot pay it back. I would be honest with the creditors that we are bankrupt and cannot pay it back. Abolish the Fed, interest rates will rise significantly, assuming interest rates reach 10%, we cannot pay 10% annual interest on a 35 trillion dollar debt.

I would tell the creditors that they will not get full pensions or 100 cents on the dollar because the American public does not have that much money. Although there are losses, the losses will be greater if we continue on the current path. I would rather lose half of my money than have it stay the same but lose 90% of its purchasing power.

So whenever I see a discussion about the debt ceiling, I find it ridiculous. Some people say, "The United States will always pay its debts, and we need to raise the debt ceiling." In fact, we need to raise the debt ceiling because we have never paid our debts and want to continue living without paying them. The truly responsible thing to do is to maintain the current debt ceiling. The debt ceiling was originally established to prevent the government from issuing too much bonds, but Congress can raise the ceiling at will, and this "ceiling" is actually just in name only.

David: Let's talk about the stock market. Is the stock market overvalued, undervalued, or fairly priced now?

Peter Schiff: The stock market is currently overvalued, but that doesn't mean it will fall sharply. Due to excessive money issuance, the nominal price of the stock market may rise. If the real value of the stock market is measured in gold, the price will be significantly lower. In the past 23 years, the Dow Jones Index has risen fourfold, while gold has risen eightfold. In terms of gold, the Dow Jones Index has fallen 50%. This trend may continue and accelerate.

I think the market still has a long way to go to fall, especially technology stocks may experience a larger adjustment. Although I am optimistic about the future of technology, the high valuation of technology stocks has been digested by market prices. Now a lot of funds are concentrated on the so-called "Big Seven Technology", which is a crowded trade, and the market will eventually be reshuffled.

The Fed will continue to print money, and the stock market may look higher in this case, but this is just a change in measurement, not an actual increase in value. Gold's value is stable and unchanged, and the economy is currently seriously dysfunctional. The national savings rate is at an all-time low, consumer debt, credit card debt, corporate debt, and government debt are all at record highs, the real estate market, especially commercial real estate, is also collapsing, and the banking system is facing debt problems.

We are experiencing the worst merchandise trade deficit in history, and the trade deficit and national debt are climbing. The national debt is approaching $35.3 trillion, with an annual growth of more than $3 trillion, and interest payments have become the third largest expenditure item in the federal budget. It is expected that interest payments will surpass Social Security and Medicare in the next year or two to become the largest government expenditure item. This situation is unsustainable and we will face a collapse.

The trend of de-dollarization has begun, with BRIC countries and others reducing their dollar holdings and buying gold instead. Retail investors lack confidence in gold, resulting in net redemptions of gold ETFs. Therefore, gold is cheap now, while stocks are expensive, and the financial crisis will be even worse. The "real crash" I wrote about in my 2013 book has not yet happened, and now all signs indicate that it is coming and will be worse than it was a decade ago.

While I accurately predicted the housing market collapse and the financial crisis, it was only the beginning. The real crash has not yet come, and the problems now are bigger than ever, with greater debt and bubbles, and the chaos and crisis facing the market will be even more serious. I believe my strategy will allow me to make a profit in the end, and I hope to keep this wealth, after all, I now live in Puerto Rico, which is exempt from federal income and capital gains taxes.

Ryan: What principles do you follow for wealth growth?

Peter Schiff:The best way to grow wealth is to start a successful business. Although starting a business is difficult, entrepreneurs play a key role in capitalism. They need to decide what everyone does, provide tools, take risks, and hope for success. In contrast, employees will receive a salary even if the company is not profitable, while entrepreneurs can only benefit when the company is profitable. If the company loses money, the entrepreneur has to pay out of his own pocket to fill the deficit. Therefore, starting a business is much more complicated than working.

Although starting a business requires mortgaging a property or raising funds, successful entrepreneurs often earn more. As an employee, your income is limited because you are a cost of the company. Although the income of positions such as sales commissions can increase with performance, the overall income is still limited. Successful business owners often get higher returns after working hard in the early stages, and their working hours may be reduced.

In addition, it is crucial to choose an industry that you love. You need to spend a lot of time in the field you are interested in so that you can really enjoy your work.

When it comes to investing, make smart decisions, avoid blindly following the crowd, and be patient. A strategy like Warren Buffett's - investing in growth businesses rather than metals - makes sense under normal circumstances. However, the stock market is currently overpriced and Buffett is selling stocks rather than buying them. I think gold is very cheap right now, and if Buffett thinks stocks are overpriced, he should move his funds into gold rather than dollars because gold offers a better store of value and discount.

Ryan: If you were to make a strong case for Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, showing their most convincing advantages and prospects, how would you make it?

Peter Schiff: The only strong argument is that there could be another wave of buying in the future. Today, ETFs are pressuring the US government to buy Bitcoin. Is it possible that the government would buy Bitcoin if Trump is re-elected president?

Personally I hope the government doesn't buy Bitcoin, we don't need to print more money to buy it. But if something happens, like high inflation or a dollar crisis, people may turn to Bitcoin as a safe haven. Given the limited total supply of Bitcoin, if money floods into the market, the price could rise to $100,000, $200,000, or even $300,000. However, most long-term holders probably won't sell, they'll hold on.

In contrast, I think other assets with real underlying value have greater upside potential and less risk of collapse. Although Bitcoin may see a wave of enthusiasm in the event of inflation or a dollar crisis, I don't think it's worth investing in Bitcoin.

Also, why hasn't this happened yet? When the Bitcoin ETF was launched, everyone had high expectations for it, but now the price of Bitcoin has limited gains and has fallen by about 10% this year, while gold has risen by 22%-23%. This shows that the market's enthusiasm for Bitcoin may have cooled.

I am worried about what may happen when ETF buyers become sellers. Many people invest in Bitcoin through ETFs purely to speculate on the price. When they start selling, it may trigger a market crash because there is not enough real buying in the market to take over these Bitcoins. ETFs must be paid in US dollars, not Tether, which will increase the risk of a crash in the Bitcoin market.

After a massive sell-off, the price of Bitcoin may fall to $10,000 or $5,000, and then there may be a rebound, but in the long run, it may fall again. The recent grandeur of Bitcoin conferences reminds me of the peak of the real estate bubble, when the luxurious scenes foreshadowed the bursting of the bubble. I think the future of Bitcoin may develop in this direction.

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