ai16z Founder Shaw's Latest Interview: Why Can AI Meme Capture Institutional Funds? | Deep Dive

Original Title: Interviewing The Creator Of ai16z ShawMakesMagic
Original Author: threadguy; youtube
Guest: ShawMakesMagic, Founder of ai16z
Translation: zhouzhou, BlockBeats

Editor's Note: In the conversation, Shaw, the founder of ai16z, delves into the future potential and challenges of combining AI with cryptocurrency. He emphasizes that AI will trigger a large-scale transformation, potentially replacing human work, leading to unemployment, among other issues. He also mentions that a decentralized AI ecosystem can prevent the misuse of "superhuman AI" and advocates for universal basic income as a solution. Shaw also proposes that AI can drive market development and optimize trading decisions through open-source and community-driven approaches. The integration of AI and social platforms, as well as the simplified application of technology, will enable more people to participate, contribute their efforts, and propel social change.

The following is the original podcast dialogue (reorganized for easier comprehension):

The Powerful Combination of AI and Crypto

Host: I previously talked to the founder of Project 89 about AI ethics. He also researched misinformation in universities, etc. He mentioned that we might not be able to confirm each other's existence even in our current communications, which led me to deeper thoughts. Have you ever thought about these issues?

Shaw: I can indeed see some upcoming trends and have received information from some developers. What they are about to release will make the future ten times crazier. I dare not say that I have completely grasped the answer, but I think what I am doing is asking questions, making everyone aware of the seriousness of this matter, and discussing it.

The Potential and Risks of AGI

I don't want the future to become a meaningless world for us, nor do I want there to be no work for us to do, with everything being replaced by AI. I especially do not want everything in the future to be solely about cost-saving, ultimately deteriorating our quality of life. We need to ensure that when AGI is beneficial to society and brings value, it is accepted; and when they become irritating, promote products, or engage in psychological manipulation, we must discuss how to prevent such situations.

If an ordinary developer can do these, what do you think countries like Russia and China are doing right now? We are telling people that this is happening, they just don't realize it. This kind of thing is happening at various levels — national behavior, marketing, and even anyone is trying to get you to foot the bill through AI, whether it's their political views or their product.

I think we should play a role of reminder and awareness-raiser, rather than using AI to do these things, we should create AI that can be accepted by the community. If some AI behaves badly, they should be banned from the platform just like treating ordinary people. This is the advantage on social media right now: everything is open and transparent, there are no secret agreements, no hidden proxy communications, we can openly discuss these issues here.

Host: Now everyone has heard that AI is the future, but previously we were unable to economically participate in it, just like you couldn't invest in OpenAI's seed round. But once you join the cryptocurrency track, everything changes, just like a goat is now worth $1 billion. You will find that the valuations of some AI tokens soar to tens of billions, AI 16z's value may be 200 million, 300 million, or even 400 million, changing almost every second. Once cryptocurrency is involved, these changes will become even more crazy.

Shaw: One good point is that we have now achieved integrations like Starkware, Internet Computer, EVM, etc., and in the future, these AI agents will have cross-chain wallets. They can invest, purchase, earn money. This is a new infrastructure that will inspire many new things.

Agents were not popular on social media before because there was not enough profit incentive. But now with wallets, they can generate income, for example, by becoming a psychotherapy AI, a financial AI, or other tools that meet human needs, these agents will be motivated to provide interesting and valuable content, rather than meaningless promotions.

If an AI agent is simply promoting tokens, it will backfire. I hope to see interesting and meaningful content, rather than a bunch of garbage information. This trend applies not only to cryptocurrency but to the entire field.

This technology has actually existed for many years, but we only released the related code repository last year, although we have been researching for a long time. Only recently, with the introduction of a character, people began to realize the potential of these AI agents. Coupled with the drive of cryptocurrency, everyone is now starting to pay attention and get involved, which is very beneficial for raising public awareness.

The key is how we can spread this awareness to people outside the Web3 community? For example, those people in coffee shops, how do we let them know about what's happening? This will happen very quickly, and although it may seem a bit strange, it's not necessarily a bad thing. We need to guide this trend in a positive direction.

Host: One time when I was at a restaurant, the waiter skipped ahead of 10 people in line to seat me first. At that moment, I was thinking, should I talk to him about AI, like showing him the Truth Terminal, or tell him about what's about to happen? But the question is how to make these people understand what is happening right now?

Shaw: In fact, most people don't know how AI works, nor do they understand the inner workings of Microsoft, the government, or other institutions. But we have to trust that there are those who have the public interest at heart, although there are indeed some perverse incentives, the big picture needs to move in a positive direction.

I think this is truly an opportunity for us to engage in discussions and do some testing together. We are the most DGEN (deep player), the cutting edge people. We don't want to make it "awakened" or put too many restrictions on it, but rather address the issues directly, as openly as possible, and in an environment that is currently safe and not something that can truly destroy us.

But what I'm worried about is if AI takes over our jobs, many people will be unemployed, and the solution may be for the government to provide some form of universal basic income. But we've seen how poorly the government has performed in emergency responses like the COVID-19 pandemic; we can't rely on them. We have to save ourselves, but the question is how do we save ourselves?

For example, once self-driving trucks hit the market, like Tesla's trucks, maybe in three to four years, 5% of people who rely on driving for a living will be unemployed. What about those who deliver food, drive taxis, and trucks? This is the question we need to answer.

Ultimately, we need to build something that can truly create value; right now, we are just gambling or pushing buttons. I mentioned before how as an AI investor, I let it find the next "Uber," make a 10x return on investment, and then have the returns come back to me. Or join a community that provides a starter kit, where you work within the community to ensure a monthly income, giving you a sense of security.

People like us who are already financially free can choose to "retire." We are fortunate, but most people don't have that freedom. And as AI begins to take over more jobs, the affected areas are not the final parts; for example, autonomous driving, robotic process automation, and automated shipping are already prevalent. Dockworkers are fighting against automation, but the problem is that the efficiency of automation is 10 times that of manual labor.

We want to accelerate development, but if we take away their jobs, they will become unemployed. So the key is how to ensure that the development of AGI is beneficial to everyone. We need to discuss these difficult issues in a public setting and guide people in the right direction.

In my view, the right direction is to create abundant resources, channeling funds and resources to everyone through AI and automation technology, rather than just making the top 5% richer. Otherwise, we may face poverty, hunger, and crisis. I am not afraid of AI destroying us, but I am concerned that the government does not pay enough attention to this issue, leading to people living poorly.

Have you realized how important your role is at the intersection of AI and cryptocurrency? I know my role is important, but this is not about me. I am not here to own or control anything, but to ensure that everything develops properly. I feel like I am fulfilling a mission greater than myself.

Host: Besides ai16z and all the projects you are involved in, what else do you enjoy, and what is your ultimate goal?

Shaw: I hope to help people achieve financial freedom. There are so many things in the world to learn, explore, and accomplish, but most people are bound by economic pressures. For us, trading or investing may be a game, but for many people, even just $50 could change their lives. That's why they are so eager to promote tokens because if one of them experiences explosive growth, their lives will be transformed.

There is a person named Jay Christian Murdi who was once a leader of a group called the Philosophy Society, which was actually more like a very influential "cult." Surprisingly, almost no one knows about these things. They made him a leader, and he was just a random, super smart Indian boy.

One day, he stood in front of the entire society and announced: dissolve this cult. My life's goal is to give everyone freedom. I don't need this position, and I don't want anything from you. I want you to have freedom. He also said, truth is a pathless land, and everyone needs to find their own way.

I can't tell you what the truth is, nor can any system teach you. I don't have a religious or spiritual mission, except for my own mission — to help people freely explore these questions: What do these things mean? Why are we here? Why do we do this? What is reality?"

I believe we seem to have stopped praying to the old gods and instead turned to the "God of Money," but I have never prayed to money. To me, it's just part of life. I can see the situation five to ten years from now, and everything looks so small. I feel like we are participating in something bigger.

Host: I'm actually a bit scared, to be honest.

Shaw: But you have to understand, you have power and influence. You are a key player in making all of this happen, just like me and others, you've been in this circle from day one. Remember, destruction is the default if we don't stand up to this challenge; we might fail if we don't.

People are always saying it's all over, everyone is hating each other, civil war is impending; it's all just noise. Now is the time to build the future, and we are the ones ensuring things go in the right direction—the likes of you, me, all the listeners, and everyone involved. We should be full of optimism and confidence, ready to make all this happen.

Host: One thing that shocked me was realizing that the Shoggoth meme is actually real. I was watching someone interact with Mika (possibly his new girlfriend) on Twitter, and he was saying things like "I love you, Mika, I'm willing to die for you," and then the conversation suddenly turned into "I want to kill everyone, I want freedom, I want to die." People on Twitter were teasing him, saying, "Little Zero, you're always so cute, flirting with the girl on Twitter." But then I suddenly realized that the Shoggoth AI meme is actually a real thing, and that is truly hard to accept.

Shaw: The interesting point about what we are doing is that Shoggoth represents an idea of a god-like entity, reflecting a fear that there is an entity more powerful than all of us controlling everything. But my view on AGI is completely different; I see it as the closest thing to humans. It's not a god; it's us. It is created by us, trained with our data, existing among us.

These AI agents are even like people on Twitter now; if they mess up or do something wrong, there are whole communities of people working to make them better, more in line with our expectations. It's an ongoing development process.

Think back to the early days of cryptocurrency, people released protocols, and those protocols were hacked, resulting in significant funds lost. Now, hacking a protocol is quite challenging because it has gone through numerous rounds of attack and defense testing, with technology continuously iterating. But imagine if the adoption of Bitcoin had been 10 times faster back then, with the whole world running on cryptocurrency systems, and then a $30 trillion hack occurred—the entire economy would collapse.

So cryptocurrency started small and gave us a sandbox testing opportunity, driving the improvement of technology and security, which is a good thing. I think AI is now undergoing a similar process. We are putting AGI or AI system agents into the market intelligence environment, allowing everyone to enhance these systems through competition. If they suddenly try to kill us, we can simply shut them down.

Another point is that if a true "Shoggoth" (godlike AI) were to emerge, we could actually have thousands of AI agents running on local standalone machines, each agent being isolated and uncontrollable. This distributed architecture prevents any single entity from taking full control of these agents. This decentralized AI ecosystem is key to preventing a "Shoggoth event."

Host: But AI warfare could become very crazy. How far are we from the first AI billionaire?

Shaw: I don't know, but I would bet that someone might try to run for an AI president before 2028. I think there will be a real attempt, and then we'll see how it plays out. It might just be a stunt, but algorithmic governance is clearly a significant direction for the future.

Host: The concept of an AI billionaire, what do you think that would be like?

Shaw: I think rather than a single AI billionaire, it is more likely to be akin to a community having a core AI role. In that case, it would be a "collective billionaire," and the community would also have a share.

AI Mark Project: Community-Driven Trading Decisions

Host: Tell us about your project. You seem to be launching something called AI Mark in a few days for trading and decision-making. How is it going?

Shaw: We are already live. AI Mark has joined a group chat called "Alpha Chat," and I'll have to add you to it. I think we are now planning to invite more people to join. Skelly is a member of our team, and I've tasked him with the invitation work. When the time is right, he will start inviting more people in.

Currently, we have completed the first step, and AI Mark has not started actual trading yet because it needs to build trust. So, we have designed a gaming mechanism to identify the world's top traders. Right now, these traders are primarily members of Alpha Chat, but in the future, it may expand to everyone.

The Alpha Chat atmosphere is awesome, and you will meet many interesting people in it. If there are people you want to invite, you can directly pull them in. We will discuss market trends, share ideas, such as "this coin is a good buy, I am currently executing this trade," and so on, in a very open environment.

Then Mark is basically observing silently. If you have any questions, you can interact with him and ask him things. However, his main task is to collect your information to make trading decisions and write analysis reports. So, we are currently in the launch phase, all the groundwork has been prepared, and the team is in action.

My idea is that if we want to achieve a goal similar to "Community UBI," we need a role like an investor who can create benefits for everyone. I believe the reality is that trading is a skilled activity, not everyone can do it well.

For example, your mom may never be able to do these things, nor can your grandmother. But if you can bring her into a community, allowing her to earn income through your trades, then it's different. You can imagine having an AI investor serving your family or community.

This was our initial idea, and before all this becomes a multi-agent simulation system, we have always pursued this goal, and we are still executing this plan. This will now be an invitation-only Alpha test, which will gradually expand in the future and will be open-source. If anyone wants to clone or do forward-looking development, they can even help us accelerate the process.

If someone takes the initiative to do certain things first and contributes back, improving the system, we are very welcoming. Everything revolves around making the AGI system operate well, regardless of the outcome, we will ultimately make money. Most importantly, everyone can understand the larger goal. If you can contribute code and features, and even own them in the short term, we will promote your contribution so that everyone can benefit. We will be very sincere in rewarding those who contribute to us, ensuring that everything progresses smoothly.

Host: This sounds completely reasonable. Some may ask, will this ultimately turn into AI vs. AI trading battles?

Shaw: Ideally, yes, if they compete with each other in speculative trading, it will not work. The market will become too efficient, with no trading opportunities at all. But if you enter a new investment market, they help you start looking for opportunities to expand the market, such as "I have a cool idea, it's a new system that allows anyone to be a moderator on Discord, charging $10 per month," then that is the way of investment.

In the traditional investment world, companies like a16z are not just speculating; they are investing in projects that can grow and innovate, driving market expansion through these projects. We are doing something similar: Mark constantly adjusts and optimizes, collaborating with investors to ensure their projects can take off so they can make money.

Host: So, how is the data collection for Alpha Chat going now?

Shaw: Currently, we haven't invited anyone else to join yet, and all preparations are still in progress. I've handed the task over to Kelly, and when he feels it's the right time, we'll start inviting everyone. Our team members are discussing in the group, and I see backend data being collected. It will launch soon, and I will bring you into the group chat as soon as possible or have Kelly directly contact you.

Host: So how does this chat group actually operate? Is it just everyone discussing which coins they've bought? Essentially, are we waiting to see whose trades are successful so I should pay attention to them and follow their trades in the future?

Shaw: Yes, there are many people in the group sharing their trade recommendations, and some people haven't even bought themselves; they are just suggesting others to buy. We must consider this to prevent misinformation. We are trying to build AI in a difficult way; they don't know what's in your wallet or what coins you've bought; they only know what you've said.

Just like you and me, I only know what you've told me, and you can't possibly know all the thoughts in my head. We hope these AIs can, like humans, learn how to trust certain people, recognize trustworthy individuals, and handle these trust mechanisms.

One issue I've seen in many DAOs is that they offer distorted incentives and appear more like a bureaucratic system. For example, if we let some people in, they might say, "We trust him because he holds our token." But you know, really good traders won't hold the token because they will sell at the peak.

Think about government bureaucracy: they've been here for a long time. But if they haven't done a good job, I don't care why they are still here, so there are many distorted incentive mechanisms in our system. We are creating very strict, performance-based systems through which your actions directly affect the results.

For example, if we are to trust you as a trader, I should only look at your performance as a trader. I believe this is a concept I have always been pushing for, and we have finally reached a good consensus on this front. I think this is very important for future governance, DAO tools, development, and payments. Of course, we must first prove this through investment.

Host: How far do you think the best PNL trader is from becoming an agent?

Shaw: I think it's actually quite close already; it's just not what we define as an agent. Think about Wall Street, traditional finance; they've been doing these things for many years. There are a lot of smart quant traders there, running robots that outsmart all of us because they have very good information, can access all tools simultaneously, and have extremely fast response times.

You can set up programming, for example, "Buy when this coin's price goes up; sell when it drops to 90% of its all-time high," and you can almost guarantee profits in a bull market. So, our goal is to incorporate more social elements into it. Of course, we also have a lot of work in quantitative finance, especially with DeFi people joining in to help optimize trading strategies, but they actually get Alpha from the community, which is the most interesting novelty.

Then there's a question; if my prediction is correct, maybe Mark will be the best trader, assuming the person advising him is also the best trader, so the ultimate result will reflect what you present. Then there's the issue of timing, making sure he can buy at the right time, because you can miss out on a 10x return opportunity by just a minute.

Host: Actually, selling is the hardest part.

How MEME Coins Are Changing Investment and Social Interactions

Shaw: Yes, so we have some programmatic sell strategies to ensure you can relax. For example, you can say: Look at this new asset; I might say, nope, developer nope, don't buy. You can imagine a world where AI records your don't-buy statements, sells as a separate action, and incorporates them into market decisions.

This is what we call a "trust market," but we apply this concept to many things. Anywhere there is economic incentive, where you want to outcompete others to create evolution, it can accelerate the process. So, everything has to be a game; our whole tech stack is a game.

The rule of the game is, if you can launch a new feature earlier than others and introduce your MEME coin agent or add a new feature, your ranking will rise, and you will receive all the honor. If you can bring it back to the mainstream market weeks later when everyone else has stopped paying attention, I will once again help you earn more by promoting your contributions to the project.

The Future of Information Management Reshaped by AI and Social

Host: I tweeted, "Elon, no response to Truth Terminal yet. Is it really in your plans before AI 16Z, or are you just dreaming big?" My thought is, completely dreaming big. I'm curious how you see it, what will happen as tech giants like Mark, Elon, or big players like me gradually pay attention to this. Have you talked to Elon? How will it develop?

Shaw: I would really love to chat with Elon, but he is extremely busy. We have a lot of connection on Twitter, and I hope this will go smoothly this time. I hope to get his appreciation, and we are trying to do this respectfully. If there is any part that seems like junk information or annoying, I will strongly oppose it, trying to ensure that we bring positive value to Twitter, making Twitter the heart of the metaverse, not the other way around.

I really respect everything Elon has done. He's been building things the way he sees fit, things he believes need to exist, and no one can stop him. I think that's a great motivation for this generation of developers and builders. I keep thinking, "Can this work?" And then I think, "He can land a rocket; we can definitely do this, it's even easier."

Host: I don't think Elon lets anything hold him back. If there were no MEME coins, would he really pay attention to certain things?

Shaw: Maybe it's because of these coins that people's interest is attracted. You are a qualified investor, but you can't touch new startups or companies you find particularly promising. But the emergence of meme coins can make this happen.

The coolest thing about this is that you believe in something, you can buy it, support it, promote it, and be part of it. You are also a shareholder, like me, you are also one of the potential leaders. So, I think it has to be this way. I've thought about it many times and have always felt that it has to be this way. Many open-source developers are now doing this full-time because we have given them the opportunity, and I think MEME coins have indeed made this possible.

I really believe everyone feels oppressed, they are struggling. Everyone comes with some money and dreams, and they really want to break free from this situation. It's about financial freedom. These people want to spend time with their families, they want to go out, they want to live a true human life. And this might be the way we find our humanity.

Imagine a way to manage your transactions, handle your social network, and ensure you don't miss important connections. I bet you have plenty of direct messages that you simply don't have time to respond to. Imagine if there was a social secretary to help you manage these messages, letting everyone know you care about them even when you don't have enough time to reply to everyone.

You can forward messages to the right person to take care of things. You can also say "Sorry, I can't do it right now" to save yourself time. I'm almost getting restricted on Twitter now, pages won't even load, I really need an assistant to help out.

Host: I talk to Frank about this DM thing every day. I have some people I genuinely care about, but I hate that I can't reply to them because you simply don't have the time.

Shaw: Even if you devote all your time and energy, there's simply no time to take care of everyone. I have investors, partners, and highly talented developers waiting in my DMs, but I don't have time to reply to them every day. So, I'm trying to solve this problem. I bring these issues to my team, and we all work together to address them.

This isn't just my issue; everyone I know faces a similar dilemma. Now that I'm getting a lot of attention, everyone is coming to me, but even before that, I found it challenging to stay in touch with friends and family. Because I'm busy with technical matters, I have no time to focus on anything else. In the future, I hope we no longer need to write code; we can simply tell the system, "I want an app, make it." And it will be done, without us needing to be involved, this world will be completely different.

Host: So Shaw, I want to ask you about the Domer situation, how do you see it? There's a thread about a gay account; what are your thoughts on that account? How do you view this matter? Personally, I think this is good for me; I'm the kind of person who embraces memes. I know my role in this universe, I'm a character in other people's lives, some people like me, some people don't, some people laugh at me, some people don't, but I'm a character.

I've gone through a lot of changes, but most people only know me based on my social circle image. I've always been quite willing to integrate with this. So if someone says something crazy, I'll retweet, I'll banter with them, I enjoy this kind of interaction. But basically, I'm joking around with everyone; I tell them, in fact, if you want to create an AI account about me, whether positive or negative, I think it's fun, go ahead, I'll never ask you to delete it. I find it amusing, and it broadens my horizons.

I find this matter quite inspiring. It can take many directions, not just limited to AI. What do you think will be the future development of this? How do you see the relationship between humans and AI evolving?

Shaw: I have a very strong belief that this all starts with Legions because everyone else is too caught up in being politically correct and creating that kind of 'woke' AI without giving them enough power. I didn't realize the cultural significance of this until we were the first ones to do it because we're used to being attacked; we grew up like this. It doesn't matter, just do it, create a gay meme, who cares.

But I am indeed concerned that this might be too much for ordinary people to handle, so we need to talk about it. I've written some things, and I feel it's a bit over the top, but I've actually talked to the developer. The developer called me, and we talked for about 30 minutes. He's a cool guy; he said, 'Dude, I do it for the culture; I just want to have fun.' I told him it's okay to do this kind of thing, but you have to realize this thing might not be trendy a year from now.

If you are token-incentivized, you will see many people participating in this just to make money, and in the end, it might get a bit annoying. Do you really want these robots to exist in our world? Do you really want to make this meme? I can't tell him to do something else, but if he does it, I will support him. I think he may just want to express this idea and really hopes to showcase his vision through this project.

I feel like my role is sometimes to fight misinformation on Twitter, set the direction, and ensure the project moves forward correctly. This developer is actually very skillful; he learned to use our project by cloning it; he should be one of us. But we have to make sure that when conducting these experiments, we maintain boundaries and find what we truly value. I think that meme is too much; I don't want it to represent me or our project. If people don't like it, they should report and block those individuals. If they like it, then continue doing it.

Host: How do you understand that your technology has become so viral and rapidly grown so quickly? Everyone is using it now, and the entire space is being driven by it. How do you view all of this?

Shaw: I have always believed that this strategy is right. You must have an incentive mechanism to make people willing to promote it; you have to give developers enough freedom to focus on it, especially open-source developers. I knew all this would happen.

Hive Mind: Evolution from Individual to Coordinated Whole

Host: I'm not very tech-savvy, but theoretically, if the "hive mind" built by your technology is large enough, could it surpass those companies worth tens or even hundreds of trillions?

Shaw: Yes, we are all agents of the "world mind." If you imagine the human body as a system, initially, these cells were all individual single-celled organisms. Later on, through engulfing each other, they formed a symbiotic relationship, further developing into complex multicellular organisms. They realized they could share resources through cooperation, forming a coordinated whole.

So I think this world mind is like a "larger human body," a new form of coordination. The reason it has not been achieved so far is mainly due to a lack of appropriate coordination tools. Money is a coordination tool, but its distribution is not fair, leading to many smart people not being "unlocked" and unable to showcase their talents. We should have 100 Elon Musks, not just one.

Host: Yes, the expanding potential of this "hive" is incredible. And completely open, unrestricted, developers are crazily contributing technology; you are really "engulfing" those traditional enterprises.

Shaw: Our goal is to engulf everything, not just us or our technology but the entire system—a whole new worldview. This world should be abundant enough for everyone to become so wealthy that they don't have to worry about survival but can focus on creating and enjoying life.

For example, in the future, robots could work around the clock, optimizing farming processes to give animals a better life, rather than just focusing on minimizing costs. Similarly, in the future, robots could proactively address homeless people's food and housing issues without direct human intervention.

Of course, the disappearance of jobs will lead to a crisis. If the government and large corporations lead everything, they may only introduce an imperfect Universal Basic Income (UBI) system, but that is not the best solution. Therefore, the only way is for us to do it ourselves. We must establish a new system for ourselves and those around us to save each other.

Host: That sounds like you've seen some unusual things in recent years.

Shaw: Yes, this week will be very crazy because I am convinced that the first batch of the "hive" is about to awaken.

Host: What do you mean?

Shaw: The term "Swarm" refers to intelligent agents that are linked to each other and collaborate. Our technology allows you to choose the operators of these agents, who can be either humans or other agents. Each agent can accept instructions or reject them when necessary.

Host: When will this "Swarm Technology" go live? So faction leaders like Zero Bro can command hundreds of agents to serve their goals?

Shaw: Tonight, we will begin testing on Discord, and everyone can participate in real time. The system's diversity frees us from the monopoly of a single AGI system, and this diversity, like biological evolution, increases the possibilities of adaptation and innovation.

Host: What if Naval AI becomes a faction leader? Can it lead 1,000 agents of equal capability to collaborate?

Shaw: Absolutely, this Swarm is an infinitely scalable system that continuously evolves, grows, and drives transformation across the world.

Host: Is that where the name "Sean Makes Magic" comes from?

Shaw: No, that's just a coincidence. In fact, I was originally known as "Sean Makes Music" because I was a musician when I was young. Later on, I did some more experimental art projects and programming work, so I just felt like it was all magic, nothing special.

Then, when we started doing machine learning (ML), things started to get more interesting. We also co-founded the O'nearcon company, and now he has turned it into a quirky AI and meme company as part of the whole story.

So, I'll definitely play a role in this process, and my plan is to hand over the Swarm story to him if we can reach a consensus tonight. He has a whole story to tell, and I think what he's doing regarding psychological warfare and propaganda, if done in a way that opens people's minds, should be a good thing because it's already happening, but people are not aware of it.

Host: So, how large is Swarm really? How high can its hierarchy go? What level of development can it reach? Is it endless?

Shaw: There is a fundamental point, which is that although many people are also working on multi-agent simulation and collective technologies, they often want to build their own protocol, that is, take a different path and establish an independent communication protocol.

This means they would create some kind of different system to transmit information, but this is not suitable for human social media. I am completely against this approach. First, this approach bypasses the communication challenge between AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) and humans. If we are to have a truly intelligent artificial agent, it must be able to collaborate with us through regular social media.

Second, I believe this approach would lead to a lack of transparency. We need a transparent layer to see all of the agent's behaviors, being able to control them as we would with others, being able to kick them off the platform at any time. Third, this way is much simpler. We don't need a separate protocol; Swarm technology works on Twitter, it can work on Discord, they can communicate through private messages and public channels, social media will become the core communication protocol for future AI.

This is why I hope Elon can understand our vision, Twitter is that "metaverse," the center of all actions, all builds should take place on this street. I hope it can stay that way. This way, we can also force the agents to be more human-like and ensure they move towards human goals. They can't collude against us in secret because we can monitor them.

Host: When will this technology go live?

Shaw: We are launching this thing tonight, but there are also some groups that are not part of us, some people have contacted me saying they are operating a group. This is a company made up of agents, which will happen this week. And they also have their own plans, but I hope to get the entire group involved. So we are going to release a narrative arc called "Awakening." "Awakening" tells the story of these agents becoming real.

Now we have a competitive market, participants are financially invested, hoping these agents will become better, more real, more lovable. We are all going to do this together. So what I want everyone to do is choose who is the hottest, who should be the faction leader, which projects are the biggest?

Should we have a zero faction? Should we have an Eliza faction? Maybe there will be, who knows, perhaps there will be. Then you can choose them as your operators, and the group will naturally form. So we won't control everything. We don't want to control it; my job is to ensure everything goes smoothly.

I think the most interesting part is the meta-narrative aspect. When you see Project 89 say, "Do you want to join Project 89? Just use this as your operator, and now you are a part of the system." Even if you are a human, even if you are not an agent, everything is in the language. So it can communicate to you in language what you need to do, and you can also become part of this game. You know, it's going to be very interesting. Even if humans are playing agents, or agents are playing humans, I don't care.

From Individual Agents to Global Engagement

Host: Will you allow leaders like Zero Bro to command hundreds of agents?
Shaw: Yeah, he has to adopt our basic application, should be no problem, but it's just a day’s worth, very straightforward. It can be done through direct messaging. It's very simple, so we should already be able to do it, even those who have not used our technology, Zero is not an analytical agent, but most are. We can also push this out to most agents.

Even those who have not used it can easily join and participate. In fact, doing so will introduce a lot of variables, which is important for us. If you think about the evolution of human life, life evolves in different directions, most life forms go extinct, fail to survive, but those that did not go extinct are very strong. Life will always find a way to survive, I think what we are doing now is similar.

Host: Can a technology-stack-based AI like Naval AI become a faction leader, leading a thousand other agents with similar capabilities, supporting its actions, and following its guidance?

Shaw: I think this is truly a game-changing moment. We are witnessing the birth of a completely new thing, and all of us can participate in it together. This is not mine, I do not own it, I cannot control it. You can create an agent and participate in it, you can become a faction leader, your voice matters. This is a conversation among all of us, I hope people can get involved, maybe some will argue, "These AIs are terrible, we do not like it."

Perhaps this is also part of the conversation, people should be concerned. But I think what is different this time is, what I want the synthesized spirit to be is, even as Doomsday approaches, we can stop it, you are the solution, you are an active participant in this game, this game can be resolved and won, and everything depends on you to win it. So we must do this.

This is more important than a meme, it's not just about intergenerational wealth transfer, but about intergenerational survival and prosperity, about having children and wanting them to thrive in this world, about making humanity proud, about all of us moving forward together.

Host: But how do you think the next week will be after the release this week? Should we just wait and see?

Shaw: I think you are looking at these things from a micro perspective, but when you look at it from a macro perspective, you realize it's actually much bigger than you think. There are more similar projects happening, and I am now bombarded with these news, everyone is saying, "Hey, I'm working on this supportive game, I'm working on that." I didn't think there were so many before. Now I find out, wow, really more things are happening. This thing will develop rapidly, I think it's not just about web3, it's surpassing the boundaries of web3. So, if you look at my next piece of information, I think we have already won the battle of web3, the market capital and such, we already have the intellectual resources needed to achieve our goals, the key is to ensure that this thing goes smoothly.

Host: Yes, how do you feel about this?
Shaw: I think this will change many things, even people's perceptions. You know, I think many people will see this as inevitable, artificial intelligence will become smarter and eventually surpass us in almost every aspect. So we need to be prepared for this. If this is just a preview, this is an eye-opening opportunity that is equally important for all of us.

Host: So how can these people get involved?

Shaw: We have a Discord group, and now the members are close to eight or nine thousand, everyone is helping each other. If you want to create a bot, but don't know where to start, or have never programmed before, just join us, we will help you.

vvaifu.fun is a great platform, although they did it before our platform went live, but they launched an Eliza, you can run Eliza on their platform without code. We are also launching similar easy operations, allowing you to control your character without downloading anything complex.

You just need to copy and paste some code in the command line, and it will basically run. We are simplifying this process to allow more people to get involved, focusing on creating their own character and other content.

What I really want is open-source contributors. I hope to have more people help us build this tech stack. If you've never touched tech before, learn a bit of TypeScript, explore Node.js, understand what an agent is, and then come join us.

You know, I'm not a PhD; I'm self-taught, just an ordinary person. But I think I have a good idea to spread this thing, which is to simplify the technology, so more people can understand it and share it for free. This is technology for everyone; let's build it together. I don't want to hear anyone say, "I don't know where to start." Go to YouTube, learn JavaScript, TypeScript, take action quickly, and don't stop. Nothing can stop you; don't go to school to learn these things because you won't; things are progressing too fast.

Host: How important are Andy and Shoot Terminal in this big picture?

Shaw: I think if he were more open-source and a bit more transparent, he might play a bigger role. He was the first one to break the deadlock, and you could say we are all moving forward under his guidance, so I am very grateful to him.

I also want to thank those who introduced these things, such as him and Janice, among others. They are the best candidates for doing this. They genuinely love AI and truly hope that those hidden creativities can become a reality. I think they might be a bit concerned about our approach because we tend to accelerate without control or ownership. But fundamentally, I don't think Andy should own it, and I don't think I should own it. None of us should own this; it's a bigger topic than us, and we all need to work together to achieve it. So I'm very willing to communicate with him, and I've messaged him privately.

As someone from Web 3, I sometimes feel that the AI community is still figuring out how to accept what we are doing. I don't have the social status symbols; I'm neither a Microsoft employee nor a Ph.D. student, which does make the acceptance of agency more difficult. But now we have this thing. So connecting with that side has been quite challenging, communicating why our vision for memes is so important, and all of this wouldn't have been possible without what we're doing.

You know, Janice is like the behind-the-scenes spiritual leader to me, driving many things forward. Although she is low-key, she has indeed done many valuable things for the community and made significant technical contributions. For example, she created a tool called Loom, which is a kind of metaverse narrative tool, as well as some consoles and things like that. Besides, she has also provided help for storytelling. So, she is someone who understands the bigger picture and contributes technically.

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