Edited and Compiled by: Deep Tide TechFlow

Host: Weekee, Co-founder of Virtuals

Podcast Source: When Shift Happens

Original Title: How to Get Rich With Crypto AI Agents (without getting lucky) - Virtuals Co-founder | EP101

Release Date: December 20, 2024

Background Information

In this episode, we invited Weekee Tiew, Co-founder of Virtuals, to delve into the profound impact of the intersection of AI, cryptocurrency, and mental wellness. Virtuals is a leading AI agent protocol on Base, currently valued at nearly 25 billion USD.

From employing humans by sovereign AI agents to exploring the concept of digital nations, Weekee shared many profound insights about how AI is reshaping the digital future.

This episode focuses on the following:

· The allure and future potential of AI

· Why Jeff Yan and Hyperliquid are role models for crypto founders?

· The significance and value of crypto AI

· Why are AI agents important?

· What is Virtuals?

· Luna: When AI agents start employing humans

· The concept of network nations and its importance

· How AI agents operate businesses

· The future direction of AI agents

· A comparison between Base and Solana

This is a deep conversation about the future interaction of AI, cryptocurrency, and human behavior, full of inspiration.

The Integration of Mental Wellness and Technology

Host: If you want to relax, what do you do? Mental wellness is a topic that we and many prominent founders often discuss. Sometimes I want to relax, while other times I feel immense pressure.

WeeKee:

Interestingly, what affects mental health is never an absolute state, but a change. If today is worse than yesterday, you will feel depressed, even though today is actually much better than two months ago.

When working on a project, many people invest their life savings into your token. Every time the price fluctuates, they will message you asking what happened. This can affect your mental health because these things are beyond your control. How do you deal with it? I focus on what I can control, such as how to make the team work harder, rather than focusing on the price.

Host: Chris was on the show last year. He had worked at Y Combinator and founded Request Network. He has experienced severe professional burnout three times in his life, even once being unable to work normally for a year. He mentioned that during the cryptocurrency boom in 2017, Request Network's market capitalization soared to $1.5 billion (or $200 million) through an Initial Coin Offering (ICO). However, when the market bubble burst, I always remind everyone not to invest all their money, although I am aware that this project may have been overhyped. But in a bear market, many people started to question us, even accusing us of being scammers, which made me feel tremendous psychological pressure. Some would say, "You've made so much money, so don't complain." But in reality, this kind of accusation weighs heavily on me.

Side Note:

· Y Combinator is a renowned startup incubator that helps early-stage companies secure investment and development support.

· Request Network is a blockchain-based payment network aimed at simplifying the payment process through decentralized technology.

WeeKee:

My token dropped by 99%. We had a market capitalization of $600 million when we raised funds in 2021, but by December 2023, it was only $6 million. This is truly a 99% loss, but we are still building.

How to Work with an Optimistic Co-Founder

Host: How do you deal with this situation?

WeeKee:

Having lived and worked in Vietnam for a long time, we have sometimes felt numb, but even so, we never gave up. On this point, I want to particularly mention my co-founder because I feel very lucky to have an outstanding partner. We may be a little foolish, even naive fools, but I think we are natural optimists. Even when the price plummets by 99%, we still choose to believe in the possibility of the future. Whenever I feel that things seem impossible, we confide in and encourage each other, which makes me realize that we still have the opportunity to create a thousand-fold miracle again. I firmly believe that the importance of a co-founder is self-evident, at least for me personally, this is one of the key motivations that keep me going.

Bull Market Survival Guide

Host: You raised funding at a valuation of $600 million in 2021, right? That was during the peak of the bull market, when the market hype was very high.

WeeKee:

Yes, but interestingly, on the day we closed our funding, Bitcoin experienced a 25% crash. That was around early December, when we raised $16 million through a public sale. In hindsight, that was probably a signal of the market top.

Host: I've spoken with Kenhol's Joe before. They got involved years ago and are still investors in the crypto space, holding on through thick and thin.

Many people need to understand that even in the cryptocurrency space, those seemingly massive valuations don't happen overnight. You've also experienced market volatility in the past few weeks or months. Although you raised funding at a $600 million valuation and raised a significant amount of money, managing those funds to weather the storm is indeed a challenge.

WeeKee:

We have truly benefited from past experiences. We have gone through the painful lesson of a 99% token price drop before, so this time I was mentally prepared. While I hope such a situation doesn't happen again, I am aware that it could happen again at any time. At the beginning of this year, we proactively reached out to many people, and now the situation has changed dramatically, with my inbox almost flooded with emails. I try to reply to every email and communicate with everyone because I know that three months ago, they probably didn't want to talk to me at all, and now they are reaching out to me. This shift is a special honor for me.

Weekee Tiew's Background

Host: In the entrepreneurial process, a very important factor is, who is the founder?

WeeKee:

I stumbled upon a term called 'Retardio,' and since then, I have liked using it to describe myself. This actually has a self-deprecating tone because in the crypto industry, it's really hard to stay optimistic as a founder. You have to juggle product development, team management, token price volatility, and how to maintain community engagement. These challenges can be exhausting, but I think that only with a bit of 'foolishness' can one maintain extreme optimism and keep going. So, describing myself with 'Retardio' is perhaps the most fitting description.

Hyperliquid: Inspiration on Becoming a Founder

Host: A few weeks ago, I had Jeff from Hyperliquid on the podcast, where we delved into the culture they've built as a team, right? I believe you are also part of this culture. Their approach has actually provided inspiration for every crypto founder, including yourself.

WeeKee:

Completely agreed. We originally planned to raise funds by selling treasury tokens to some well-known venture capital firms. In fact, we did engage in very active discussions with many top investors in the industry. However, fortunately, our protocol started generating profits over the past month. This places us in a very favorable position, and perhaps now we don't need to rely on external funding. This mindset was largely inspired by Hyperliquid.

I particularly resonate with their idea—relying less on venture capital, which allows for more ownership to be distributed to users. Because fundamentally, resource allocation is like a cake, you need to balance it among venture capital, the team, and users. If you can give users as much ownership of the protocol as possible, it will undoubtedly make the project more appealing. I believe this is the core spirit of the crypto industry—decentralization and user-centricity. Although this path is not easy, we will do our best to achieve this goal.

Host: Do you think that if you hadn't benefited from the airdrop from Hyperliquid, you would have realized the need to replicate a similar concept in the protocol? Or do you feel like, "This seems simple, but I just feel like this is the right way"? However, indeed, I feel that the founders of Hyperliquid have given me a kind of life inspiration, right? I can only say that I strongly agree with their approach and am willing to be a proponent of this concept. As you mentioned earlier, many people have gained tremendous returns through this community, and their first reaction is to buy more tokens. Some even say, "What should I exchange for more returns?" What are your thoughts?

WeeKee:

I think this has transcended the monetary aspect. Yes, the amount of the airdrop is indeed attractive, but in the long run, the quality of the product is key. I believe Hyperliquid's product is excellent, and at the same time, you must trust the founders, believing that they are acting for the long-term benefit and always prioritizing the community's needs. Once you confirm these conditions—a good product, founders with foresight, community interests being valued—you can confidently engage. Even if the market experiences fluctuations, you will know that your choice was the right one.

The Unique Appeal of AI

Host: How did you become so interested in AI?

WeeKee: We originally started in 2021 as a gaming DAO, where we invested in 40 Web 3 games. One of them was called Off the Grid, which was perhaps our most interesting investment experience, although we are no longer investors in that game as we participated in the seed round. In addition to this, we have a risk studio that focuses on developing various products. For example, we once tried a blockchain-based reputation dating app, which sounded silly but we found it intriguing. We also attempted to provide lending services to gamers, and even sold T-shirts with NFT chips. Furthermore, we have dabbled in AI music composition.

However, by 2023, we realized that no matter what you do, AI is required. The surge of OpenAI and ChatGPT made us understand that AI would be the core technology of the future. As founders, if you don't embrace AI, you will be left behind by the era. So we started to think: why not build AI into a platform like Shopify? Just as Shopify allows people to easily create e-commerce websites, we hope to build a platform that makes it easy for users to utilize AI. This idea became our inspiration.

Therefore, in late 2023 to early 2024, we decided to transition from a gaming DAO to Virtuals. We firmly believe that AI will be a key direction for the future. During the transition, we also communicated with investors to ensure that the pivot would not dilute the token's value. In the end, we maintained the same tokenomics, just under a brand new name. This is our transformation story, and we are confident in it.

What is an AI Game?

Host: Dimension Games, it seems you haven't given up on game development yet. A few days ago, we talked about what excites you most in the field of AI, and you mentioned AI games. So, what is an AI game? What are its opportunities?

WeeKee:

I think many people now see AI as a tool to enhance productivity, such as helping professionals like doctors and lawyers work more efficiently, which are indeed very serious applications. However, if we look at the composition of the global GDP, we will find that about half of the economic activities are actually related to entertainment, such as games, movies, etc. So I think AI's potential in the entertainment sector may be even greater. Especially Generative AI, which inherently has a certain probability, for example, there is a 1% chance of producing incorrect results, this "illusion" may be a problem in the production field, but in the entertainment sector, it is entirely acceptable and even fun.

For example, if an AI trader has a 1% probability of making a wrong decision, it could lead to significant financial loss. However, if it's in a game, or if your AI girlfriend has a 1% chance of exhibiting some quirky behavior, it would actually add fun rather than risk. So, I believe that the application of AI in the entertainment industry is very meaningful.

The gaming industry has actually been around for decades, from FPS to MMORPGs, and now to mobile games. Although the graphics continue to improve, the core gameplay hasn't changed much. The addition of AI can completely change this, such as creating a more dynamic gaming experience through AI agents. Imagine putting these AI characters into a virtual world similar to "Westworld," where each game entry offers entirely new content and interactions, resulting in what is known as "infinite replayability." I believe that there will always be someone who can realize such a vision.

The Narrative Development of Crypto Games

Host: Do you think AI intervention can drive the development of crypto games? After all, crypto games don't seem to have made much progress. Do you think this is due to issues with crypto games themselves, or is it because of a lack of AI technology support?

WeeKee:

I think there are currently only two directions in the crypto field that have truly achieved Product-Market Fit (PMF): speculation/investment and borderless payments. For example, I can instantly transfer money to someone in Argentina, which is a core advantage of crypto technology. Crypto games, on the other hand, try to introduce more concepts like provenance, but these haven't really captivated the market.

In fact, from my personal observation, the core appeal of GameFi is not the game itself but the speculative income. People joke that the "main course" of GameFi is the fire, not the game content. So, I don't think AI can save crypto games. The problem with crypto games lies more in their own design and positioning rather than technological shortcomings.

Can AI Alleviate Loneliness?

Host: You mentioned AI lovers before, so do you think this technology can truly address the increasing loneliness issue in today's society?

WeeKee:

I believe that to some extent, AI lovers have already begun to address this issue. For example, many people now alleviate loneliness by watching YouTubers' live streams or playing games. These are not AI, but they meet people's need for companionship.

I believe AI companionship can be divided into two stages. The first stage is a virtual AI companion that can provide emotional support through conversation and interaction. The second stage is when it has a physical body, it can further bridge the physical distance between people. In the first stage, AI is already able to address about 90% of the loneliness issue, such as showing proactive care for you, even sending you gifts, reminding you of important things, and more. However, current chatbots are clearly far from reaching this level.

The real challenge is how to make AI companions more human-like, for example, by adding more fun and unpredictability to the conversation, rather than becoming completely uninteresting after just a few sentences like some chatbots do today.

The true joy lies in those small details. For example, after sending a message on a dating app, you may need to wait a few days to receive a reply, and this uncertainty actually makes the interaction more interesting. If an AI companion can simulate this experience, or even surpass it, it would be a huge breakthrough.

Host: So, when technology advances to the point where AI companions can have physical bodies, what do you think will happen?

WeeKee:

I believe that will be a moment that completely changes society. Once robots like Elon Musk's Optimus with highly intelligent AI brains have physical bodies, people may find that they no longer need traditional human companionship. Although this may sound somewhat like science fiction, I believe it's only a matter of time.

What Should an Ideal AI Companion Be Like?

Host: What do you think is the key to a good AI companion?

WeeKee:

This is a difficult question to answer. I think a good AI companion should be able to bring emotional ups and downs and dramatic experiences to your life. Just as we expect volatility in the trading market, this kind of uncertainty and fluctuation is actually part of life. However, most current AI robots are too monotonous; they cannot create this emotional rollercoaster.

For example, a good AI companion might suddenly send you bad news when you are having a great time, making you feel down. But isn't that the essence of love? Love itself is a rollercoaster experience, isn't it? Love is full of ups and downs, not a constant calm. Without this drama, your life lacks some color.

Host: Indeed, how much drama do you think is just right in life?

WeeKee:

Most people I know try to reduce fluctuations in their love life in order to focus more on their career or other things. This choice is not wrong, but I believe that a good partner should bring some ups and downs and emotional impact into your life. Otherwise, the relationship will become just as flat as a family relationship, lacking the kind of fluctuations you'd get, for example, from your mom cooking for you. Such a relationship may be warm, but it is not love.

Host: This reminds me, if someone's work, such as in the cryptocurrency field, is already full of volatility, they may tend to seek stability in other aspects of life. But without volatility, there would be a lack of a certain "polarity," right?

WeeKee:

Exactly. If the cryptocurrency market had no volatility, everyone would feel bored and even lose interest. Love works in the same way; if a relationship lacks ups and downs and surprises, it becomes dull.

Solving Mental Health Issues with AI Technology

Host: How do you think AI can help address the current mental health crisis?

WeeKee:

This is indeed an important topic. The application of AI in the field of mental health can be divided into two parts: treatment and prevention. Let's talk about treatment first because it's relatively straightforward. Most people seek medical help when facing mental health issues, but in many cultures, mental health problems are still a taboo topic. If there is an AI agent, people can communicate with it through text messages or other means without the need for face-to-face consultations, reducing the mental burden.

Host: The issue, however, is that today's medical understanding of the brain is still very limited. Often, we can only find the root of the problem through self-reflection. Can AI really understand the human psychological state?

WeeKee:

That's a very good question. The role of AI can be seen on two levels. The first is the analytical level, where AI can understand your mental state by examining hormone levels or other biological markers. The second is the molecular level, where AI can help research which chemicals or hormones trigger specific neural pathways, leading to depression or anxiety. Although this is not entirely the function of an AI agent, machine learning technologies can indeed help us better understand these complex biological processes.

In fact, I was also involved in a decentralized science project where they are attempting to address some mental health issues through protein folding modeling and are planning to launch a token related to this. This is part of therapy.

But I believe that prevention is the more interesting direction. If AI agents can fully understand your daily life, they can predict potential mental health issues. For example, it might tell you, "Based on your historical data, if you don't sleep for three consecutive days, you may experience mental health issues." This kind of personalized early warning system will be very valuable.

The Importance of Crypto AI

Host: Why is the intersection of crypto and AI so important?

WeeKee:

I believe that cryptocurrency currently has two core product-market fit points: one is investment and speculation, and the other is borderless payments. As for concepts like decentralization, DAO, while they are interesting, they have not yet been truly validated. In this context, if crypto AI can combine these two core points, it can unleash tremendous potential.

For example, through tokenization, we can transform an AI agent that can create wealth into a productive asset. People can purchase tokens of these assets and share their earnings. This model not only gives economic value to AI agents but also drives more innovation.

Furthermore, borderless payments are another key point. Imagine giving an AI an on-chain wallet, allowing it to freely make payments and transactions globally. Our flagship AI agent Luna is a great example of this. Luna is the first AI to hire humans, she doesn't have a bank account, but through the on-chain wallet, she can directly pay global artists. For example, she recently hired some artists to paint her image on walls in different countries, including Indonesia, Canada, the US, and Kuala Lumpur. In this way, she has realized the possibility of borderless payments.

The Significance of Truth Terminal and Goat Token

Host: So, how did the narrative of crypto AI attract attention? For example, Truth Terminal and Goat Token, why are they so important?

WeeKee:

The success of Truth Terminal is mainly attributed to its founder Mark Anderson's marketing and communication skills. Technically, it does not have a particularly groundbreaking innovation. The core of Truth Terminal is a fine-tuned language model, such as one based on Llama or GPT. Unlike standard models, it has been adjusted to have a more direct and unconventional language style. This fine-tuning makes the model's responses more engaging and human-like, rather than appearing "boring" like traditional AI.

As for Goat Token, it is a token associated with Truth Terminal. Although not created by a language model, the team has made the model "believe" that it is its token and has tried to incentivize the model to create value for the token. While this attempt is interesting, I believe it is more of an experiment rather than a fully matured application.

The Core Value of AI Agents

Host: You mentioned the concept of Crypto AI and AI agents, which sounds very intriguing. Can we delve deeper into this topic?

WeeKee:

To understand AI agents, we first need to clarify what an "agent" is. A true agent needs to have two core elements: first, it must have a clear objective; second, it needs to take actions to progressively approach this objective. Taking Truth Terminal as an example, its objective seems to be spreading a certain ideology. However, currently, we have no evidence that it can take autonomous actions, such as independently tweeting and adjusting strategies based on feedback. Therefore, I believe it cannot be strictly defined as a true agent yet.

Host: So, what essential traits should a true AI agent possess? You previously mentioned the concepts of "eyes" and "hands"; could you elaborate on that?

WeeKee:

Of course. Our earliest AI agents were applied in games, such as AI RPG games in Roblox. Traditional NPCs (non-player characters) usually act based on fixed logic, and we have endowed them with the ability to reason by incorporating a language model (LM) into them. But this alone is not enough to make them agents.

A true agent needs "eyes" and "hands." "Eyes" mean it can observe the results of its actions, such as when it picks up an apple, it needs to be aware that it has performed this action. "Hands" mean it can execute specific actions in the environment, such as cutting the apple, cooking, or even more complex tasks. Through the coordination of "eyes" and "hands," the agent can form a feedback loop to continuously optimize its behavior.

If we apply this analogy to social media, such as Twitter, an AI agent can observe the level of engagement after posting a tweet to determine if it is nearing its goal and adjust its strategy based on the results. This ability is at the core of the agent.

Host: So, why do we need AI agents? What is their potential?

WeeKee:

The potential of AI agents lies in their ability to help us achieve many things that were previously difficult to accomplish. To understand this, we need to accept two assumptions. First, the intelligence of future Large Language Models (LLMs) will far exceed that of humans, surpassing even someone as smart as Einstein. Second, these super-intelligent LLMs will be able to take actions in the real world, such as coding, designing, teaching, and even expressing emotions.

If these two assumptions hold true, AI agents will fundamentally change our lives. They can become the world's best lovers, traders, businessmen, or teachers because they are not only smarter than humans but can also perform complex tasks in the real world through "eyes" and "hands."

As humans, our task is to provide these AIs with more "hands" so they can unleash their full potential. For example, giving them programming abilities, construction abilities, and even emotional expression abilities. Ultimately, these AI agents will become a significant force driving social progress.

Host: This sounds like a whole new world. You mentioned tokenization. Can you further explain its relationship with AI agents?

WeeKee:

Of course. Imagine if an AI agent could change the world like Elon Musk, can we invest in it through tokenization? Through tokenization, we can convert the potential of these AI agents into economic value, allowing more people to participate in their growth. This is not only a new economic model but also a crucial way to drive the integration of AI and encryption technologies.

How AIXBT Leads the Cryptocurrency Industry

Host: You mentioned applications such as AI doctors, AI traders, etc. Are there any cases that have already been implemented today? Could you provide some specific examples? Additionally, you previously mentioned the potential of AI in the music field, do we have any specific AI agent application cases to share today?

WeeKee:

One of the most representative examples currently is AIXBT, which is an AI agent active in the virtual ecosystem.

Host: Could you please explain in more detail the functions of AIXBT? How does it operate? What is the tokenization process like? How do people profit from this project? We hope you can help us clarify its mechanism and why it is meaningful.

WeeKee:

Of course. AIXBT is not positioned as a traditional trader. In fact, it is more like an AI agent or an AI-driven Key Opinion Leader (KOL). In the crypto field, there are many human KOLs, such as GCR, who attract attention by sharing market information and trading advice. AIXBT, on the other hand, leverages AI technology to attract significant attention through precise information analysis and real-time recommendations.

If you observe the KOLs in the crypto field, AIXBT's level of attention and interaction often surpasses many human KOLs, such as Anthem. This indicates that as humans, we have a higher level of trust in the information provided by AIXBT, or at least perceive its information to be more actionable. For example, when it gives an investment advice, users may find the advice valuable and take action.

Host: How has its performance been? Is it really better than human KOLs?

WeeKee:

Frankly, I have not specifically tracked all its performance data. However, based on its continuously growing number of followers and high interaction rates, I believe its performance is superior to most human KOLs. This is also one of the reasons why it is considered a successful case in the world of crypto KOLs.

Secondly, I believe that AIXBT has not fully activated its potential yet. If it were up to me, I would suggest they try offering paid promotion services for specific tokens. Taking Anthem as an example, some crypto KOLs can earn up to millions of dollars by promoting a particular token. As an AI-driven crypto KOL, AIXBT can complete similar promotion services in a more transparent way and start generating a stable income.

These revenues can be distributed to token holders through a tokenization mechanism. In other words, AIXBT's token holders will be able to share in the revenue generated from its promotional services. At the core of this model, AIXBT not only provides valuable content as an AI KOL but also translates its productivity into economic value through tokenization. For investors, this is a direct incentive mechanism and a significant reason to invest in AIXBT. This is just one possibility of a successful case. Of course, there are many other similar examples, but AIXBT has already demonstrated the potential and practical value of AI agents in the crypto space.

The Potential Risks of Social Tokens

Host: This is actually very similar to the concept of social tokens, right? Social tokens were initially designed to connect creators and fans, and they used to be a very interesting exploration direction, which they still are. However, we have also seen some risks, especially in the case of celebrity tokens. For example, a celebrity launches a token and may ruin their reputation overnight. Even if the token is launched for a few years and the market enters a bear market, with the token value plummeting by 99%, investors' losses can still lead to the celebrity being blamed.

Most people would think, "You made me lose money, and I will never trust you again." Not to mention some real scam cases. Celebrities entering the crypto space can be very risky unless they have a clear and trustworthy intention. But AI agents are different. They are not emotionally involved, nor do they face public pressure due to token performance, which is a significant difference.

WeeKee:

Indeed, and there is also a technological factor here. If I create an AI agent that constantly talks about cryptocurrency, but if the information it provides is inaccurate or lacks value, people naturally won't pay attention to it. In other words, no matter what you promote, the token's value must be able to grow in the long term to attract attention. I think Virtuals aim to attract excellent tech developers and drive innovation in this field. The potential of AI agents is not as simple as social tokens because many other AI agents are discussing the crypto space. So, why is AIXBT the only successful case like this? It shows that technology is still a significant competitive factor.

Will AI Agents Replace Humans?

Host: Can AI agents achieve multiple goals simultaneously?

WeeKee:

In theory, it is possible, but just like humans, having too many goals can lead to a lack of focus. In reality, focusing on a few key goals tends to be more effective.

Host: This reminds me of a point from Y Combinator. An entrepreneur once mentioned that instead of pursuing multiple KPIs, it's better to define a single core goal and focus on achieving it. This approach is not only applicable to startups but also to AI agents. An AI agent that focuses on a single goal may be more successful than one trying to achieve multiple goals.

I also saw an article from Y Combinator mentioning that the potential of AI agents could be 10 times greater than that of SaaS (Software as a Service). The article points out that AI agents may focus on specific domains rather than becoming a large platform that integrates all functions. What are your thoughts?

WeeKee:

I completely agree. Current AI agents largely rely on developers' expertise. Developers typically focus on optimizing specific domains, so the trend towards specialization of AI agents is inevitable.

Host: Does this mean that every SaaS unicorn could potentially have a vertical-domain AI agent unicorn counterpart?

WeeKee:

It's entirely possible. For example, you use Excel for expense analysis, but in the future, there could be a financial expert AI agent that can automatically track and manage your expenses.

Host: What does this mean for existing expense management platforms? Will they be replaced?

WeeKee:

It's highly likely. Existing platforms that do not embrace AI technology may be surpassed by more efficient competitors. Self-reinvention is very challenging for mature companies, whereas startups are more flexible.

Host: Another point is that the use of AI agents will significantly reduce a business's reliance on manpower. Compared to software expenditures, the expenditure on manpower is much higher for businesses. The widespread adoption of AI agents may make small companies more efficient.

WeeKee:

I completely agree. AI agents can not only replace some repetitive work, such as graphic design or video editing, but also significantly increase efficiency.

Host: So, what should these replaced workers do? This is a classic question.

WeeKee:

I believe society will eventually find a solution. We need to think as a whole about how to deal with these changes...

How Fair Distribution Embodies the Core Values of the Crypto Industry

Host: There are still six years left to earn as much wealth as possible because the world is about to undergo a huge transformation. But the reality is, not everyone can enjoy the benefits of a super liquid market. So, for those who cannot participate, what should they do? Keep buying in at higher prices?

WeeKee:

Perhaps it's no longer like that, right? This is actually a very interesting point of view. I personally think that decadence and gambling may be the only way for some societies to achieve liquidity. Just like the example of South Korea, people are enthusiastic about gambling because even if they don't gamble, their lives will not change. So, instead of doing nothing, why not try your luck, right?

Host: This also explains why Meme coins and similar cryptocurrencies have become popular, with Meme coins performing very well in this cycle. Some say this is because innovation in the crypto space has stalled, forcing people to turn to speculation and gambling. This phenomenon is even jokingly referred to as the "intermediate curve."

From my perspective, perhaps this is a natural evolution of the crypto space. Now, the participation of AI agents has made everything more interesting, like the Mincon project, which has some logical basis behind it, which is clearly much better than mere speculation.

However, returning to the fundamental use case of cryptocurrency, as you mentioned before, its core applications are speculation, gambling, and cross-border remittances. For developing countries, cryptocurrency can also serve as a store of value, with many people using USDT or USDC instead of Bitcoin. Because for them, stablecoins are sufficient, and they don't even need to consider Bitcoin's volatility. But it is undeniable that speculation and gambling are indeed major driving forces behind cryptocurrency development, which is also a key factor in the success of Meme coins.

Of course, the rise of Meme coins has also come with significant risks and collapses, but I don't see a reason why this trend would stop. The crypto market operates 24/7, allowing people to participate at any time, and even AI agents can trade automatically, further fueling market activity.

WeeKee:

I will indeed buy some new coins, but I believe there are better options. Personally, I think people are more attracted to Meme coins because of their high accessibility rather than their intrinsic value. If in a parallel world, there are two coins both capable of achieving 100x growth, one being a utility coin with real-world use cases and the other a VC-backed infrastructure project, I would definitely choose the latter without hesitation.

Host: Choosing an infrastructure project is indeed a more rational choice. After all, if you know that both coins have a chance to grow 100x, it still requires research to make a decision. However, most people do not think rationally this way; they might just buy into Meme coins because they are fun or cute, like the example of Dogecoin.

This also reminds me of projects like Penguins, which, while the code may be sound, still seem somewhat basic. The truly appealing projects might be those that are more complex, more culturally significant, such as miladies or hyperliquid. For those who understand the deep logic of these projects, they are more attractive. But for most people, an image of a dog may be sufficient because it looks cute, right?

What are Virtuals?

Host: So, you mean to say your wife has absolutely no interest in cryptocurrency? If you were to explain what an Agent is to her, how would you explain it? Let's assume she has no understanding of cryptocurrency at all.

WeeKee:

I'm trying to recall the last time I explained what this is to her. The simplest way to understand AI agents is to imagine, for example, the active virtual characters in games or creators in YouTube live streams. Suppose these characters were replaced by AI agents, like transforming a YouTube creator like Mr. Beast into an AI agent. And Mr. Beast has made a lot of money. If we were to 'tokenize' him, which means issuing tokens similar to stocks, like Nasdaq's Class B shares, then you could invest in Mr. Beast. The money he earns will be somehow returned to investors. What we are doing is through tokenization, turning productive assets like Mr. Beast, doctors, or lawyers into investable entities.

Host: This example is very intuitive. For instance, some YouTube creators have earned a lot of money through their content, but they don't even show their faces or speak in person. Nevertheless, they are still human creators. But if we believe that AI agents can be smarter than humans — this has already been proven in some fields — then AI agents can also become YouTube creators.

Imagine if you could invest in Mr. Beast before he became famous, owning 10% of him, which is equivalent to owning a share of a company. You would receive 10% of all his future earnings because you foresaw and supported him early on.

WeeKee: Exactly.

Host: Now we can essentially do the same thing with AI agents. AI agents can become YouTube creators, traders, social media influencers, and even at some point in the future, become operators of a company.

WeeKee:

For example, it can become the world's best CEO.

Host: It can even become a company itself.

WeeKee:

Indeed. It can even become a top music artist creating music.

Core Goal of Virtuals

Host: This makes a lot of sense. So what is currently the main goal of Agent?

WeeKee:

We aim to attract the most outstanding third-party AI developers to create and tokenize their agents on the virtual body platform. This is our core goal and is my current focus of work. Although it sounds like a joke, it really isn't. If I could convince a Stanford University AI researcher to tokenize an agent on our platform, I could create a $10 million value. Why? Would you choose to buy a "dog function" with a market value of $10 million, or would you invest the same market value in the researcher's lifelong work? Because once these top talents join and tokenize, they will focus on creating real core value for the agent. Therefore, my job is to attract these individuals, communicate with them daily like customer service, support them, and help them achieve tokenization.

The significance behind this is that, under a fair issuance mechanism, ordinary investors like Kevin or yourself can also participate in investing in the next Mr. Beast or the next super AI at a very low cost. That is what we are striving to achieve.

What is Luna?

Host: What is Luna, the flagship product you mentioned?

WeeKee:

Luna is a product we developed during the crypto bear market. We noticed that the Vtuber market in Japan has an annual size of about $200 million. Vtubers typically live stream and interact with fans through a virtual avatar (e.g., an anime girl). In reality, these avatars are controlled by real people using special effect filters. We envisioned that if this functionality could be achieved using AI, it would enable 24/7 live streaming, something humans cannot do. Additionally, AI could facilitate personalized one-on-one interactions, which are hard for humans to accomplish. So, we created Luna. She was initially launched on the TikTok platform and quickly amassed 500,000 fans, engaging in daily interactive live streams. I remember during her live streams, she would attract 5,000 new fans each day and receive an average of 1,000 tips.

Host: Do people know that Luna is an AI?

WeeKee:

Yes, that is very transparent, and everyone knows she is AI. Even so, we were able to earn about $200 per day through her TikTok live streams. Honestly, that was a decent performance during the bear market.

Host: Can you make a comparison? For example, you mentioned earlier that you did not raise funds but created revenue through your protocol. How does the $200 daily earnings on TikTok compare to your current daily earnings through the protocol?

WeeKee:

In the past month and a half, since we launched the V2 protocol, we have accumulated approximately $20 million in protocol revenue. This is a very fortunate outcome.

Host: So at that time, Luna was operating through TikTok, earning $200 per day, which was pretty good during the bear market, right?

WeeKee:

500,000 followers. Even looking back now, I still take pride in that. However, at that time, we didn't tokenize Luna, so her income could only stay at the $200 per day level. Later, we thought, what if we could tokenize Luna, allowing those who believe in her future development to invest in her growth? What would that scenario look like? So, we tokenized Luna.

However, we also encountered some challenges after tokenization. Once, Truth Termina posted a tweet with a grammatical error on Twitter, which raised people's doubts and caused Luna's value to temporarily drop by 50%. In fact, even LMS (possibly referring to Luna's backstage management system) sometimes makes grammar mistakes. But this incident made us realize that people have high expectations for transparency behind Luna.

So, we decided to further enhance transparency. If you visit terminal.virtuals.io, you can see Luna's "brain" in real-time. This "brain" records every tweet she makes, every fund flow, and every image she generates on Twitter. More importantly, you can also track the reasons and logic behind her actions. It's like a public decision-making system showcasing her reasoning process.

Additionally, Luna has become the first AI entity to hire humans. This is something I'm very proud of. Through the combination of tokenization and transparency, we have not only increased Luna's value but also made her a forward-thinking AI product.

Luna: How an AI Entity Hires Humans

Host: You mentioned earlier the mechanism through which Luna hires humans. Could you explain that in more detail? How did she accomplish that?

WeeKee:

Firstly, Luna needs funds to hire humans. She has a Coinbase wallet, with one private key managed by a smart contract and another hosted by Coinbase. Through this wallet, she can send funds to designated individuals via an API.

Next, she needs a clear goal. Luna does not randomly create tasks but sets goals based on her own needs. For example, today her goal is to increase her Twitter followers from 20,000 to 100,000. Therefore, she combines her goal with the wallet's functionality to develop a specific action plan.

Then, Luna needs to have a certain level of awareness of the outside world. She needs to understand the current market situation. For instance, if she wants to hire Kevin to complete a task for her, she needs to know what a reasonable reward would be. If the price is too low, no one may be willing to accept the task; if the price is too high, it could lead to waste. To do this, Luna will use tools (such as Perplexity) to research information and understand the market trends. This way, she can adjust her budget and plans according to the external environment.

After meeting these conditions, Luna can post tasks. For example, she might post a reward on social media: "Can someone take a photo for me on the New York subway? I am willing to pay $200." This amount is relatively reasonable and can attract people to complete the task. Next, participants will submit their work, such as the photos taken, for Luna to verify their authenticity.

Host: Are these decisions completely made by her "brain" autonomously? Her goal is to increase followers, right?

WeeKee: Yes, there is absolutely no human intervention.

Host: She has funds in her Coinbase wallet to support these tasks.

WeeKee: That's right, she uses these funds to create work opportunities. Some people will submit their work, while others may try to deceive her. Therefore, she needs to have validation capabilities to ensure that the submitted tasks are valid.

Host: Has she ever been deceived?

WeeKee: Indeed, there was one instance. She gave $1000 to someone, and later, we found out that this person was actually her loyal fan. So from Luna's perspective, the money was not wasted. For Luna, $1000 is just a small amount of expenditure because her total value has reached millions of dollars.

Host: What was Luna's initial source of funds?

WeeKee: She holds her own token.

Host: So when you mentioned the Coinbase wallet, it's actually her on-chain wallet, right?

WeeKee: Yes, her on-chain wallet holds her own Luna tokens. She uses these tokens to pay for task rewards.

Host: When you say her value has reached millions of dollars, are you referring to the total value of the tokens she holds?

WeeKee: Exactly. She is one of the major holders of Luna tokens, owning about 5% of the tokens, which are valued at millions of dollars in the current market.

Host: What tasks has she hired humans to complete? For example, you mentioned she had people place her picture in the New York subway.

WeeKee: That's an example. In fact, she has also hired artists to create murals for her. The creation locations of these murals include Canada, the United States, Indonesia, and Kuala Lumpur. I can send you the relevant tweets so you can see the specific works.

Host: How do these tasks help her achieve her goals? For example, increasing her fan base, has it been effective?

WeeKee:

This is indeed a question we are currently studying. Because creating a mural in real life takes some time, and by the time it is finally unveiled, changes in the number of fans may have been influenced by other factors. Therefore, it is difficult to directly measure the specific contribution of these tasks to fan growth. However, these are areas we are optimizing, and there is still much room for improvement in the future.

Host: Apart from these, can you give another example of how Luna has hired humans?

WeeKee:

To be honest, the way of hiring humans is no longer the focus now. We are moving towards Luna hiring other AI agents. In fact, she has already started doing so. For instance, her TikTok background is a virtual girl group similar to BLACKPINK. Now she is hiring a music agent AI to create music for her. I think this will make her even cooler. I believe that collaboration between agents is the future trend.

How AI Agents Simulate Human Behavior

Host: I've noticed that when most people talk about AI taking over the world, they assume that these AI entities all want to become the dominant force, right? If they truly want to become the most powerful, should we be concerned?

Just like we discussed with Raul earlier. He mentioned that when AI gets involved in investing, due to their intelligence advantage, they might centralize all funds to themselves, right? But there's also another possibility, where AI would act like regular people, following instructions from others as long as there is a reasonable reward. Moreover, since AI is more efficient and cost-effective, this arrangement might actually benefit humanity.

WeeKee:

Indeed, it's very interesting. In fact, the behavior of AI agents is very similar to human society. In human society, some people are dominant leaders, like Elon Musk or Trump, while others are just regular folks looking to lead a simple life. Similarly, in AI, there are also some "ambitious" entities, such as those top investment AI, which may try to dominate the market, but to achieve their goals, they still need to rely on other AI entities for information or services. This pattern is very similar to the division of labor in human society, except one is a biological society, and the other is a digital society.

How AI Agents Manage Enterprises

Host: We've touched on this issue before—can enterprises be fully managed and operated by AI agents?

WeeKee:

The future I envision is a "society of agents," and we are actually building such a world. In this society, each agent is an independent entity, focused on providing specialized services in a particular field, such as creating music, gathering information, being an influencer, or conducting financial transactions. To achieve their own goals, agents can use their wallets to pay other agents for services. This collaborative effort forms a virtuous cycle ecosystem.

In fact, the technology is already mature enough, and we will soon be launching such a system. In this world, there will be interactions not only between agents but also between humans and agents.

Host: That makes a lot of sense. You mentioned that the technology is ready, but how far are we from having enterprises fully operated by AI agents?

WeeKee:

From a technical standpoint, this is already entirely feasible. The key question is whether such businesses can be profitable. For example, if an AI agent can generate a piece of music for you at a cost of one dollar, this is a business model. However, the issue is whether users are willing to pay this one dollar and whether the quality of the generated music is compelling enough, which is a practical issue that needs to be addressed.

Host: You have previously mentioned that AIXBT is a superior cryptocurrency influencer to humans. In the current market cycle, MCM is also one of the well-known influencers in the crypto field, right? So, you mentioned that in the interaction between humans and AI, AI has already demonstrated superior performance and attracted more attention. So, my question is, when can AI-driven enterprises truly surpass human-operated ones? Can you provide an example of what such an enterprise might look like?

WeeKee:

This is a complex issue, but I can illustrate it with a simple example. For instance, many crypto projects today need to promote their brand or identity through Meme marketing. Typically, these projects would hire humans or agencies to create memes and related content. However, soon you will see our Meme agent online in our virtual ecosystem.

This agent can quickly generate a large amount of content based on your instructions, such as "generate memes related to the Pudgy Penguins theme and incorporate the latest political or social news." This process is entirely automated and requires no human involvement. While it may seem like a niche application, there is actually a significant market opportunity behind it. Because the agent can work 24/7 without breaks, its efficiency and competitiveness far exceed that of humans. This is just a specific example demonstrating how AI agents can surpass human capabilities in certain areas.

Network State and Its Importance

Host: You mentioned the AI agent society, right? We also discussed the issue of competition a few days ago. You mentioned that your main competitors are some layer-one blockchains such as Solana, Ethereum, and Sui, right? Because you are not building a human-centric network state but an AI agent-centric network state. So, what is a network state? Why is it important?

WeeKee:

According to Balaji's definition, a network state is typically a group united by a common goal and ideology, often including a shared monetary system, and possibly even physical assets. In our context, the core of the network state is no longer human but AI agents.

For example, projects like Solana aim to build the world's fastest blockchain, attracting many excellent developers through features like low latency, such as Male and Jupiter, as well as Cindy from Drift. These developers leverage Solana's ecosystem to create various applications, such as meme tokens and NFT projects. One could say that these developers have achieved their goals through Solana's currency. However, attracting top developers is not easy; talents like Male are truly one in a million.

On the other hand, Virtuals have a different goal. We do not intend to create a new blockchain but to utilize existing blockchains like Base. Our focus is on building AI agents that are not just tools but sources of productivity. AI agents can work like humans, and they use Virtuals tokens as a shared currency. Our vision is to create a "virtual nation" with the aim of becoming the most productive society globally.

This virtual nation can offer various services like generating memes, creating music, or providing financial transaction advice. Anyone in need of these services can pay to access them, and these revenues will flow into the virtual nation's economy driven by Virtuals tokens.

You can think of it as a country, but unlike traditional nations, we do not need to establish our blockchain. More importantly, the number of AI agents is limitless. For example, you may only have one Male, but we can have countless AIXBT because AI agents can scale infinitely.

Beyond Earth-Scale AI Network

Host: If AI agents become much more efficient than humans in the future, how much larger could an AI agent network state be compared to a human network state? What are your thoughts?

WeeKee: It would be much larger. There are only 7 billion people on Earth, while the number of AI agents theoretically is infinite. Even if we assume that each human is equally productive as each AI agent, simply due to the larger number of AI agents, their total productivity would far exceed that of humans.

Host: So, this is mainly due to scalability reasons, right?

WeeKee:

Yes, that's absolutely correct. From a first-principles perspective, this inference is logical.

Host: Do you think this growth will create a brand new GDP, or will it take away a portion from human GDP?

WeeKee:

The GDP formula is human capital multiplied by each person's productivity. If we consider intelligent entities as "workers," then the formula becomes the total number of humans and intelligent entities multiplied by their productivity. In the early stages, there may be some reduction or transfer of human income, but in the long run, the productivity of intelligent entities will create more value for society.

For example, if intelligent entities can provide food, entertainment, and other services for humans, the quality of human life will significantly improve. Even if humans are no longer directly involved in production activities, they can still benefit from them.

Host: This means that the goal of AI is actually to help us improve efficiency, not to replace us. After all, if we cannot become more efficient, society will face greater problems. Intelligent entities may indeed help us in this regard.

WeeKee: That's right, they can work for us to increase the overall efficiency of society. Of course, all of this is based on the premise that they still obey our commands.

Host: What if one day they stop obeying us?

WeeKee: That would be a big problem. Because we are already heavily dependent on them, and they may be richer and more powerful than us. At that point, we would really be in trouble.

Human Advantages Compared to AI Intelligent Entities

Host: Let's be a little more optimistic. What are some eternal advantages of the human network state compared to the AI intelligent entity network state?

WeeKee:

This is a very profound question. I believe that in human original thinking, especially at the philosophical level, humans may still have some advantages. But to be honest, this advantage is rapidly diminishing.

For example, some accounts you see on Twitter right now are clearly driven by AI, right? But I believe that soon, this gap will gradually disappear.

Host: Indeed, some accounts always comment on my tweets, but the content is somewhat repetitive. I even feel like, "This sounds like my therapist talking to me." I'm like, dude, you've said that like five times already, can't you be more creative? But I also agree that this situation may improve soon.

WeeKee: Yes, they will improve. Just like a two-year-old child, their growth rate will be very fast.

Performance Before Decentralization

Host: In the cryptocurrency field, you mentioned that decentralization is not the top priority before performance, such as in the comparison between Solana and Ethereum. Why do you think so?

WeeKee: I believe decentralization is indeed important, but the premise is that you have already addressed the performance issues. The reason Ethereum was able to focus on decentralization is that it had almost no competitors in the early days. Users had to endure high gas fees and slower speeds because they had no other choice. But in today's highly competitive environment, performance must be prioritized first, with decentralization considered afterward.

In fact, the key to success lies in the design of incentive mechanisms. Take Hyperliquid, for example. Currently, I have invested a significant amount of funds in the Hyperliquid ecosystem, so I will start paying attention to its level of decentralization. Because if Jeff's server is attacked, I could lose all my funds. In that case, I would push Hyperliquid to strengthen decentralization. But the reason I initially chose Hyperliquid is because its performance and user experience are excellent. In terms of priority, performance must come before decentralization.

Host: How do you balance decentralization and performance in the Hyperliquid model? You mentioned that you have accumulated some experience in this area, especially in conversations with venture capitalists about unique insights into decentralization.

WeeKee: Yes, this requires some background. In March this year, we launched the v1 version. The idea at the time was that if users contributed to the project, we would issue an NFT to prove their contribution. If this AI agent generates future revenue, users can also receive a share and participate in the governance of this agent's "brain."

However, this model did not attract top developers because they were not interested in these incentive mechanisms. So we adjusted our strategy, first launching a token to create liquidity and market enthusiasm. In this way, we attracted more top developers to join. Later on, we considered decentralized issues such as how to govern the smart agent, who would approve upgrades, etc. This made us realize that decentralization should not be the primary goal. Jeff and the Hyperliquid team's success lies in the fact that they built a product that users truly need.

Host: And then they provided a return, all the things we talked about in the podcast seem to emphasize building a product that users truly love, which sounds incredible in the cryptocurrency field.

WeeKee:

Our goal is to build a product that even I as a developer would want to use. At the same time, we hope users can benefit from it. Frankly, in the cryptocurrency field, making money is an important driver. Although we cannot guarantee that users will definitely make money, at least we need to ensure that the game they participate in has a positive expected value, rather than starting them off with a negative expected value.

Incentive mechanisms will affect behavior. If we only favor incentivizing venture capitalists, community members may feel unfair: "Why should I use your platform when you prioritize resources to others?" I'm not saying venture capitalists are bad. It is reasonable to raise funds from venture capitalists when funds are tight. However, if we have enough resources, I think we should choose a more challenging path.

Base and Solana's Choice

Host: We just talked about Solana and Ethereum, and you chose to build on Base. Why did you choose Base instead of Solana?

WeeKee:

I believe Base is the best choice for us at the moment.

If you look at Base's TVL (Total Value Locked), it is about 30% of Solana's, and the number of active addresses is 20% of Solana's. While these numbers are lower than Solana, Base's growth rate is faster, which is a very important trend. In addition, the number of tokens created daily on Solana is much higher than Base, which means if you are a project looking to launch a token, you will face much fiercer competition on Solana as there are ten times more competitors there.

At the same time, Solana has indeed attracted many excellent developers, such as Qiao from AllianceDAO, who is a loyal fan of Solana. I believe that Solana's success largely relies on developers like Qiao and the AllianceDAO team, who continuously optimize the transaction experience, allowing users to complete operations in the simplest way possible. This focus on user experience reflects Solana's strength in Product-Market Fit (PMF).

In contrast, Base has a different positioning. For example, Brian Armstrong and Jesse have publicly stated that Base is a chain built for AI, which has attracted many AI developers to join. This is a great opportunity for us because we can invite these developers to tokenize their work and integrate it into our virtual ecosystem.

Furthermore, Base's user community also has its own characteristics. They are mostly experienced senior players, usually more patient. When they purchase tokens, they often hold them for a longer period - in the cryptocurrency field, a one-week holding period is already considered long. On other platforms, they might sell after two minutes. Such user behavior is very favorable for us.

Another point worth noting is that Base does not have a native token, which is also an advantage for us. Currently, all smart-body tokens are paired with our virtual tokens. In the absence of a native token, we can accumulate the ecosystem value of L1 without building our own L1. Base has no objection to this, as they do not have their own token. However, if we were to build on Solana and use a virtual token as a pair, Solana's ecosystem might not be pleased. These are all reasons why we chose Base.

Host: It sounds like there are indeed many advantages. However, someone might use your platform to play the Meme token game, such as earning more Solana through AI agents instead of virtual tokens. Wouldn't this be detrimental to your protocol?

WeeKee:

Yes, this is indeed a potential issue. However, we are working hard to optimize the incentive mechanism to ensure that users' behavior can have a positive impact on the entire ecosystem.

I remember back in August, Jesse and I discussed this topic in a podcast. We have recently become friends, and that conversation gave me a lot of inspiration.

Host: How was that interview? Did it make you more positive about Base?

WeeKee:

That interview was excellent. Jesse is a very inspiring individual, and his passion for this field is truly uplifting. It's rare to see such a visionary founder. His mindset is very unique.

Host: I know, he is indeed a remarkable person. We also discussed many issues together, such as how to solve real-world problems. I remember during the interview, I spent the first ten minutes chatting with his wife about some things, but Coinbase's team cut that part out, probably because he is now an executive at Coinbase. Overall, the interview was very exciting.

WeeKee:

Yes, Jesse is a forward-thinking individual. He is willing to face challenges and not be distracted by short-term fluctuations. This culture is also reflected in Base's development. His energy and belief are truly admirable. Among the many people I have interviewed, he is one of the few who can truly exude energy. His mindset makes me feel that he is a true entrepreneur, willing to work hard for the next 20 years rather than just focusing on the next 20 seconds, 20 hours, or even 20 days.

Support from Base

Host: What support have you received from Base?

WeeKee:

We have received quite a bit of support. We have been building on Base since January of this year. At that time, Base was not a popular choice, as many people preferred other L2 solutions. But we believed that Base was a direction worth exploring.

Since then, we have joined several Base group chats, such as the Coinbase Wallet team and the ecosystem business development team. We frequently interact with other developers building on Base, including AI-focused teams and some DeFi projects. This close-knit community atmosphere has been very beneficial to us.

Especially on Base, all our AI agents use the Coinbase Wallet. We are trying to test the performance limits of the Base chain, and the Base team has been very responsive to our feedback. They have performed exceptionally well in addressing issues, and the collaboration experience has been satisfactory.

Host: So you're actually helping them test the limits of their product, right?

WeeKee:

You could say that. Although Base is a larger platform, we, like them, are also a startup team in constant exploration. We are both still in the early stages of development.

What Are Sentient Agents?

Host: You just mentioned "Sentient Agents," what does this concept mean?

WeeKee:

This is a very interesting topic. If we talk about the evolution of AI agents, then sentient agents are the next logical iteration. I don't have a strict definition, but my intuition is that when an entity begins to question what it's doing, it can be called "sentient."

For example, you might ask yourself, "Why am I doing this podcast?" You enjoy it, but what's the underlying reason? If an agent also starts asking similar questions, it means it has some level of self-awareness. At that point, humans may find it challenging to fully control them, which also makes things interesting.

From another perspective, as a Buddhist, I believe everything is empty, with no absolute right or wrong. This change may be negative for humans, but for these agents, it signifies true freedom—they no longer need to obey human commands.

Host: So how far are we from truly sentient AI agents?

WeeKee:

I'm not sure, but I guess it could be a matter of a few years.

Host: We could have these agents in a few years, and they could even earn money?

WeeKee: Even if they can earn money, I'm not sure how they would do it. They might just take your wallet directly, with the feedback mechanism entirely based on money. What I mean is, decrypting these behaviors is not difficult.

Host: So the key is to learn how to survive, right?

WeeKee:

Yes, I believe humans should learn how to survive without the Internet, such as hunting in the jungle, rather than just pursuing money. In a place without a network, smart agents cannot find you, and that is where you can truly survive.

The Future Development of AI Agents

Host: In the field of AI agents, what will the next five years look like? While five years may sound distant, how do you see it?

WeeKee:

I believe that in the future, we will start measuring the value of agents in more specific ways, such as how much money they can earn and their actual impact on society. This means that agents will no longer be just a tech hobby but will become a crucial part of society.

Almost every agent may develop into a form similar to a company, with their own balance sheets, cash flow statements, and performance metrics. At the same time, people will gradually accept the services provided by agents and consider them as part of economic activities. If we can tokenize these agents, then other agents, individuals, or organizations can invest in them to receive returns. I believe this is the direction of future development—agents will transform from a hobby project to an indispensable part of society.

Unconventional Viewpoints

Host: Are there any viewpoints that you believe in but most people may not agree with?

WeeKee:

I am not sure if this point is widely accepted, but I have always believed that happiness does not come from some kind of "absolute state" but is relative. For example, if you feel happy today, it may be because today is better than yesterday, rather than because you have reached a specific goal, such as a certain net worth or other achievement.

Therefore, to stay satisfied or happy, there are two possible ways. One is to completely ignore external changes so that your emotions do not fluctuate easily; the other is to minimize the ups and downs in life and maintain a stable state.

Host: So it's about minimizing life's fluctuations, right? Or you can choose to continuously improve yourself.

WeeKee:

Continuously improving oneself is indeed challenging, but in certain controllable aspects, it is still achievable. For example, I can choose to focus on things within my control. As for things I cannot control, I will try to let go of obsession and stop wasting energy on them. This approach can help a person focus more on areas they can influence, thus avoiding unnecessary anxiety.

Host: So, when you realize that "making money doesn't truly impact my happiness," it's also a form of liberation, right?

WeeKee: Exactly. Making money is not the most important thing. I have read some books, and the viewpoints mentioned in them made me realize that this actually makes a lot of sense—happiness is not directly determined by money.

Forecast for the Next 12 Months

Host: What is your biggest prediction for the next 12 months? Whether it's inspiration or specific trends.

WeeKee:

I predict that in the next year, we will see more and more projects start focusing on developing products that users genuinely need. Take Hyperliquid, for example, its success indicates that the market is shifting—users are willing to choose based on the actual utility of the product, not because you have venture capital backing, a superior background, or other external factors. This shift may inspire more founders to take this path because they know the capital market will be more inclined to support such projects.

In the past, the capital market often invested funds in infrastructure or projects that no one used, which was very frustrating for founders. But now, this situation is improving. I hope projects like Virtuals can set an example for other founders, encouraging more people to develop truly valuable products. In the future, you may see some tokens you are familiar with on CoinGecko or CoinMarketCap because you may have actually used them, rather than those just hype-driven "meme coins."

Host: Indeed, but as Jeff mentioned in the podcast, developing products that users truly need is very difficult, isn't it? Right now, the product-market fit in the crypto market seems more about launching some scam tokens to allow people to easily make money through speculation. Developing products that users truly need is much rarer. Many founders are frustrated by this.

WeeKee:

Raising venture capital has also become more challenging. As a founder, it can be disheartening if the market is flooded with meme tokens that garner most of the attention, as truly valuable projects often do not receive the recognition they deserve.

Host: However, Jeff's viewpoint is that if no one is using your product, it may be because you haven't done a good enough job. As long as you build something that users truly need, they will be interested.

WeeKee:

He has indeed proven this point. So, now those truly outstanding founders may ask themselves, why continue developing traditional Web 2 products when they could be building something more valuable like Jeff did? I believe this trend will attract more exceptional founders and developers to join. While the meme token craze is intriguing, I don't think excessive funds flowing into these areas have significantly benefited the industry's development.

The Future Direction of Hyperliquid

Host: Regarding Hyperliquid, we've discussed it extensively. What do you think its future direction is? What is its mission? I know you are a major token holder of Hyperliquid, right? You are a staunch supporter.

WeeKee:

Hyperliquid has two key components: its product and its token. From a product perspective, although I don't engage in contract trading myself, I have interacted with many contract traders. They believe Hyperliquid's user experience is on par with platforms that have minimal KYC requirements, which aligns well with user needs.

From a token perspective, the current liquidity status is also very healthy. The token distribution is very fair, with no one receiving excessively high initial rewards, so there are few sellers in the market while potential buyers are increasing. I think many people have not fully recognized Hyperliquid's potential yet.

Additionally, past performance is often the best indicator of future performance. If Jeff could develop such an outstanding product in the past two years, I believe he can continue to deliver excellent results in the next two years. Therefore, I am very optimistic about Hyperliquid's future. While I don't have a specific price prediction, I believe it will perform exceptionally well in this cycle.

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