OG players take you into the famous DAO see | Web3.0 Master Class (stage 4)

DAO is not a new concept, as the Web3 ethos has spread. Today, DAOs seem to be the best way to organize builders from all over the world. Although this concept has a long history and we often see the birth of DAOs, it is difficult to continue. How to start and participate in a DAO? How can a DAO be better run after it is created? What are the profit models of DAO? What are the differences between Chinese and foreign DAOs? This issue of Web3.0 Master Class brings together two OG players in the DAO space to explore the "little secrets" of the well-known daos.

Listen to this content podcast: &NBsp; "OG players take you into a famous DAO for a look"

BlockBeats: First, please introduce yourself briefly. What work did you do before Web3? Why is it added to this board?

Chao:I am an IT nerd. I have been interested in computers since I was a child. I worked as an IT service provider for many years before I joined a blockchain wallet team. After leaving in 2020, I focused on DAO.

It appeals to me because I've been around long enough to meet all kinds of people, some innovators, many speculators, and many crooks. However, in the DAO field, it is very simple. Many people do not want to speculate, invest or make money, but for a very simple idea. Maybe a DAO appeals to him, or he has an idea that appeals to others, and everyone starts working together on it. This makes me feel very fresh, mixed in this industry for so many years, suddenly see a clear stream, especially attracted me. As the participation gradually deepened, I judged that its future was very good, so I put more energy into it to learn, participate and meet some friends.

I've been involved in a lot of DAOs, maybe 50 or 60, including Token or NFT memberships. There are some relatively small participation, real investment of time, including FWB, is a good cultural direction of DAO. There is also the recently popular SeedClub, which is a DAO accelerator and itself is a DAO. I spent a lot of time in Bankless DAO at the beginning, but now I spend less time because of the shift in focus, but I still keep communicating with people.

BlockBeats: How long has Chao been involved in DAO?

Chao:I've only really spent a lot of time in the DAO space for a year and a half, starting early last year. But if you include DeFi mining, the time is longer.

The concept of BlockBeats: DAO was gradually popular at the end of last year, when the plate rotation was obvious, and then DAO suddenly became popular at the end of the year.

Chao:Yes, DAO is not a new word, but it hasn't been noticed before. The first DAO appeared in 2016, but it didn't start because of a bug. If people participate in DeFi mining, they will know DAO. For example, the homepage of Curve mining is called Curve DAO, which belongs to a project with high participation of a few members. In most cases, DAO members do not have much participation.

In fact, before the end of last year, the trend of DAO out of the circle has been relatively obvious. At this point, not only will members begin to increase their participation, but DAO will also attract fans and outsiders alike. For example, FWB and Bankless DAO. Bankless DAO was founded in May of last year and has been growing well for a month. In the meantime, DAOs of the same type have attracted a lot of people in non-traditional Crypto circles. Because people found it so beautiful and wanted to come in and do something together. This lasted more than half a year.

The back has been ConstitutionDAO due to an accident. When a group overseas discovered that the only available copy of the U.S. Constitution was up for sale at Sotheby's, a high-end auction house, they raised money to get it back through a community effort. The story itself was topical, spreading quickly in the United States and around the world.

Although it ultimately failed, it inspired a lot of people, and coupled with its topicality, the DAO concept took off. Therefore, a lot of DAOs appeared in the short term, of course, some of them are speculative and are closely related to this accidental incident. But before that, all of the current gameplay in the DAO space has matured. Although it is far from being fully mature on the whole, it has not changed much since the Constitution DAO has been more than six months ago. It wasn't built because of the Constitution, the DAO or anything like that, but it was built before that.

BlockBeats: Is Chao involved in the Constitution DAO?

Chao:I contributed a little bit, and then I redeemed it.

BlockBeats: What about Shawn?

Shawn:I was an early entrant to this circle. I was an AI entrepreneur before that, and I joined in 2019 because of my personal interest. I was part of a wave of people who wanted to solve the tragedy of the Commons, which was called Commons Stack. At that time, Elinor Ostrom's 8 Principles was idealized and implemented with code and smart contracts, which lasted for more than a year.

The Commons Stack was followed by the TEC DAO(Token Engineering Commons). In the second half of 2020, I saw a lot of great people starting to enter the field, and I also decided to go all in. They were so far from money and idealistic that I felt so comfortable with them that I started investing a lot of time. The DAOs I participated in were not as many as Chao, including Mirror DAO and Bankless DAO in the future, and now I mainly focus on SeeDAO.

Back to the Constitution DAO. I was involved in the JuiceBox DAO project very early on, and the Constitution DAO was crowdfunded on JuiceBox, so I know this firsthand. I can clearly feel the change of traffic, a large number of people poured in, including Twitter and other aspects of the hot quickly exploded the topic.

In fact, DAOs have been around for a long time, and by the beginning of the 21st year, people were actually starting to solve some problems. But it was the Constitutional DAO that really brought the DAO into the public eye.

BlockBeats: Chao and Shawn have participated in many mainstream DAO organizations, and they have been deeply involved in them, including Bankless DAO, Mirror DAO, Seedclub and other well-known DAO. Both of them have rich experience. I am also curious about what DAOs you have been involved in recently. Or what are you working on?

Shawn:I spend most of my time in SeeDAO recently. Because there are a large number of SeeDAO at present, nearly 10,000 people, there will be some problems that need to be adjusted. I also recently spent some time and energy on the Mirror DAO. We all talk about the "coming out of the Web3", and I personally feel that the DAO was one of the main drivers of the coming out of the Web3. But there are all sorts of possibilities for how this should be done, whether it should be done with NFTS or in a consumer context, and they are all at a very early stage. So there's a lot of exploration going on, and there's a lot of DAOs coming out, and I've spent a lot of time looking at some of the small, beautiful DAOs that are just starting up.

BlockBeats: Yes. The Chao?

Chao:My recent time is mainly in two, one is SeedClub, the other is FWB.

I spent a lot of time in SeedClub before, but now I spend less time because I am gradually adjusting my interest and focus direction. I really want to participate in SeedClub's SubDAO Fight Club, which is related to Venture, but due to energy reasons, my participation is not that high. People often come to me and say, Chao, how can you participate in so many DAOs? I'm not. I'm not part of it. Just because I'm in it doesn't mean I'm part of it.

So most recently, the first two. SeedClub is the DAO accelerator I've been involved with since the early days. Because SeedClub speeded up a lot of wacky DAOs, I followed a lot of them with interest, including CabinDAO, a Krause House that bought NBA. There are dozens of them, at least. So initially, I positioned it as a source of information.

Over time, I started talking to some of the SeedClub's core contributors to dig deeper. SeedClub is an accelerated model, which is itself a media. I think there are a lot of things worth learning from it, so I put more effort into it.

BlockBeats: SeedClub is really hot these days. There are a lot of articles and podcasts about SeedClub. Including SeeDAO mentioned by teacher Shawn, now the attention is also very high.

However, this is also an interesting problem. As ordinary Web3 participants, we often hear all kinds of well-known DAOs, and the narrative of these DAOs is quite familiar, but there are still few users to deeply participate in these mainstream DAO organizations. So it would be better to ask some questions, including how to join these DAOs? How much salary can I get after joining DAO? What is the working relationship like? And how does DAO make money? What is the difference between a DAO and a company? So today I also want to invite you to share some of your experiences in these mainstream DAO organizations.

We can start with Bankless DAO, because you have been involved for a long time and have relatively rich experience. So, how can an average Web3 participant join the Bankless DAO?

Shawn:The Bankless DAO is relatively simple and only requires holding a certain number of its tokens.

It also has several different ways to participate. You can participate without holding a Token. You can apply to be a Guest. Your status will be renewed in 15 or 30 days. So Bankless DAO is relatively the easiest to join, which is why it has a large number of people. And it's a good representation of the DAO philosophy of "embracing all contributors". So it's not going to be a very rigorous screening or a very high threshold.

BlockBeats: But it seems to me that the Bankless DAO hierarchy design is a little strange.

Chao:The reason for the odd level design is that there is one level between them. Bankless DAO's philosophy is to "embrace all contributors" and it creates an environment for all. So if you have a great idea, you can get consensus, you can get support, and you can move forward. Of course, this must be relevant to the core purpose of the Bankless DAO. This is a fundamental philosophy.

Secondly, Bankless DAO members are encouraged to join without holding a Token. First you go to "Get involved" and introduce yourself. This is not a formal application, but a brief introduction of yourself in four sentences. Half a day to a day you receive a "Guest Pass," which means you get 14 days of access to almost all unlocked features in the community. You can participate in discussions, look at projects of interest, etc. Guest Pass allows almost anyone to participate, learn, and contribute without barriers.

Each Guest Pass14 days automatically expires, but can be renewed indefinitely. Bankless DAO has more than 100 core Level 2-qualified contributors, any of whom can renew Guest Pass. Because can unlimited renew, is also very simple, equivalent to no threshold.

One level up from Guest Pass is L1 membership, and the first level is a real member. L1 membership requires you to hold 35,000 tokens. The exact number 35,000 is related to its history. In the early days Bankless DAOs would airdrop tokens to community members, and the average number of airdrops was 35,000. This guarantees that if you are dropped, you will be eligible to participate.

Of course, there's also the option to just buy 35,000 tokens and skip Guest Pass to get involved. If you hold 150,000 tokens in total, you reach "Whale Status," which is Level 3. Level 4 is liquidity, but less attention is paid to it.

BlockBeats: The LP Token that holds liquidity in the middle?

Chao:Yes, this is Level 4, so the Level design is Guest Pass, Level 1, Level 3, Level 4. Skip Level 2 so people think it's weird. It doesn't matter, just know that Level 2 is the core contributor. You can't buy Level 2, it requires you to spend every day in the community to talk to people. After getting enough recognition from the community for your practical contribution, other members will nominate you. This is not a formal proposal to go to Snapshot, just a simple nomination from the community. Each Level 2 member is eligible to nominate others, and several "sponsors" are required. After the nominations are made, the vote is approved, and the nominee becomes Level 2. Level 2 is an honor status, and the person with this tag must be very active in the first place; Secondly, no matter which project he is in, he must have made a lot of contributions. Therefore, his understanding of DAO is deep and will provide good enough insights. This is the embodiment of community, where all Level 2 members can nominate others and there is no centralized board to issue certifications.

There is a funnel model in this system, and there are data analysis unions that do the statistics. Members work from Guest Pass to receive community rewards, which can be upgraded based on the number of tokens. Members can also choose to buy tokens based on their personal financial situation.

There was also a discussion about the number of tokens. Because there are so many contributors, the rewards are a little spread out, and getting 35,000 tokens is not easy. We discussed lowering this quantity standard. At first, the community voted against it, but several people submitted new proposals for reconsideration. Their argument actually convinced most people, because lowering standards helps the community retain contributors and increase recognition of the community. At the last minute, however, others disagreed, arguing that the review was an attempt to tamper with the collective decision. Even with good intentions, the thing itself is dangerous. After several times of friendly communication, the community decision still should not destroy the basic principle of the collective decision, and should not repeatedly try to change the consensus of the people. The matter was settled and the original system was still maintained.

But the Bankless DAO continues to explore better ways to shorten the process by which contributors accumulate 35,000 tokens.

BlockBeats: You really have to spend a lot of time in the DAO organization to get this information. As mentioned in an article written by Teacher Shawn, when I was completing the information, I thought I could catch up with the progress by looking at the meeting abstract. Later, I found that many people had many temporary ideas when I actually attended the Meet up. The meeting was full of interruptions, arguments, and even the occasional script check.

Shawn:Yes, now and then there are proposals on Bankless to change the rating system, like Level 4 instead of Level 2, so people can understand which is the highest.

BlockBeats: What are your main sources of information? Is it still Discord?

Shawn:A lot of my information comes from Discord. Many of the founders of projects in Discord are also present, providing further project information.

Take my introduction to Juicebox in 2021. At that time, I went to the Opensea Discord to find technical support to solve the problem, and found that the founder of Juicebox was also asking the same question. He introduced the scene of Juicebox and wanted to add some features to meet the needs of customers, etc. The discussions were open, and I looked at what they were trying to do, although it was early days, but there was a gap in the industry. I was intrigued and joined their Discord.

BlockBeats: Is Discord the best way to manage your Web3 or DAO organization? Or the final solution? My personal experience with Discord was that it was too much information, especially when used as a Web3 information management tool. Information management is especially troublesome if your community is a little larger. If you mute them all, you will miss a lot of messages. If you turn on the alert slightly, you will receive 99+ messages in an instant, and you will also miss important messages. You have no way of distinguishing between what is important news and what is relevant to you. So I've been wondering if Discord is the best information management tool for Web3.

Chao:GATED, you can search its website. It's a solution to the information explosion on Disord. My Discord membership allows me to add up to 200 servers, and my servers are full and I can't read them. You wouldn't notice even a few big servers like FWB or Bankless DAO, let alone 200. So I think Discord is missing something on the tool level.

GATED produces a selection of information based on the wallet address, mostly based on the NFTS or tokens you hold. With this tool, you might be able to look every three days to get important information about your community. This is a useful tool for members to keep track of communities they are interested in but don't have the time to participate in.

But this doesn't apply to being deeply involved in a single DAO, you still need to go to meetings and collisions every day to get things moving. Therefore, the two different groups should be discussed separately. One is as a "lurker," a tool that helps you filter out a lot of noisy information. But as a true deep participant, you still need to learn to "focus", because by the time you rely on the tool to alert you to the news, it is all over.

Like I join 200 servers, but I don't watch them very often, I only watch a few focused ones. I also need to rely on people @me to get some important information. After all, I'm not totally focused on the DAO, there will be other research and other things. Even if I manage five or six hours a day, which is more than most people, I still lose messages, so I would like a better mechanism to deal with this.

BlockBeats: That's true. What does Mr. Shawn think about this problem?

Shawn:Personally, I find Discord a good software for managing DAOs. Of course, there will probably be better software in the future to help you focus. Many people think of Discord as a tool for Web 2, but I think Discord is very Web3 in an open way that even a lot of Web3 software doesn't.

There are small teams that rely on the vast amount of data that Discord is opening up, not just for plugins, but for bots as well. In terms of data analysis and mining, Discord is one of the most open I know. We often say that the Web2 platform is closed and monopolistic, "your information is surrounded by walls", but Discord rarely breaks down the walls itself, and the data is publicly available.

Many teams have also talked to me about various shortcomings of Discord and wanting to make a new, similar software. There are actually two ways to use Discord. One is immersive. For example, I focus on two or three DAOs and spend most of my time interacting and discussing with community partners in two or three DAOs, which is a very social aspect. At this level, other tools may emerge to make this improvement. Another aspect is information acquisition. I personally am not an immersive user, I need a more structured acquisition [of large amounts of data]. Maybe I have 100 or so communities that I want to follow, so how do I get structured access to important information and data that doesn't require me to go through them one by one. There really is a lot of room for improvement.

The most likely solution right now: make all sorts of improvements to Discord. Many people want to do this with a Discord topple or replace, but don't see a good way to do so yet.

BlockBeats: Yes, it is not necessary to overthrow it. You can add plug-ins and data analysis on its basis to constantly improve it and cultivate it to Web3 bit by bit.Running a little too far, back to Bankless. Let's talk about its member organization. Did Mr. Shawn make any special observations about the organization?

Shawn:Back to Chao's "funnel shape." Bankless will pay out if you keep participating in the community. Since I was also involved, I took a look at the data when the subsidy was handed out last month, and it was clear that the funnel could be seen. At present, there are 110 people subsidized to Guest at the DAO Level, more than 50 people at Level 1 and more than 30 people at Level 2. 110, 40, 30, the funnel will be obvious.

BlockBeats: So most of the contributors are Level 1?

Shawn:I think the number of guests should be the most now.

Chao:Yes, the number of guests is the largest. Just now Teacher Shawn said that this data I would like to add, because it may be a little misleading. Bankless DAO now definitely has more than 100 Guest and 50 Level 1 contributors. The subsidies are really about giving people a chance. If you don't have a regular role in the project or in the union, but you do participate in the discussion, you do contribute, it still gives you a chance to vote in the community and get a little bit of a reward. However, there are many people who have already received income from the project, and they don't think they need to share the subsidy anymore, so they don't sign up, so many contributors can't be reflected in the subsidy data. So the true number of contributors is higher than the number of recipients.

Shawn:Yes, that's true. The last time I checked, I couldn't see any familiar faces who had stopped participating in the subsidy.

BlockBeats: Is this structure quite different from other DAOs, like the Mirror DAO? I know it seems like the Mirror DAO has a much higher barrier to entry than the Bankless DAO.

Shawn:Yes, Mirror is by invitation. There are actually two ways. One is to become a member of a DAO directly, by invitation only. You need to participate in the selection of articles to get into Spotlight, and then get a $WRITE, burn $WRITE to get a DAO member quota.

Another was open for a short period of a month. You can apply to be a contributor and get involved in a lot of work. At the end of the evaluation, you will be given a quota of DAO member if you meet the requirements. Therefore, the threshold of Mirror DAO is relatively high, and the threshold of invitation mode is relatively high.

BlockBeats: Is it because of the Mirror team? Is there a high degree of overlap between the Mirror DAO and members of the Mirror Team?

Shawn:Yes, it does. First of all, the leader of the DAO team excavated a senior expert from the DAO field and invited him to join in building the Mirror DAO.

The second aspect is the team itself, including its CTO, Lianchuang and core engineers, who are all veterans in the DAO field. Mirror's CTO claims to be "the best programmer ever to write poetry". Several of their core engineers have written excellent articles in the DAO field. They were heavily involved in DAO activities until February this year, after which they gradually withdrew, reportedly for compliance reasons. I read A Legal Framework for Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (A Legal Framework for Decentralized Autonomous Organizations) written by David Kerr and Miles Jennings two days ago, which refers to this issue. If you set up a company to make products and set up another DAO, it suggests that there should be no crossover, because there are compliance risks in the United States. The specific reason why these people participate in DAO activities less frequently is, I guess, due to compliance.

BlockBeats: The issue of DAO compliance is another topic I particularly want to talk about later. Before I do, I'd like to ask you what are the obvious differences between Mirror DAO and Bankless DAO, apart from this difference in entry barrier?

Shawn:I think they're totally different in terms of design. Bankless DAO has no founder at all, no sense of founder. However, the Mirror DAO is the DAO leader found by the team or the initiator. Second, although DAOs are bottom-up, how they work requires some top-level architecture design. Mirror DAO is driven by top-level design by a centralized team. I don't think so at all. Please ask Chao to explain Bankless DAO, because he participated earlier.

Chao:The DAO itself is just an evolution of organizational form. Organization is a huge concept. If we are forced to use a company to set up, a coal mining company and an investment company, its organizational form must be very different. There is a huge difference between an investment company and a Tec Internet company, and they are quite another thing compared to charitable foundations. The same is true of DAOs, which are organizations. The gameplay between DAOs and DAOs is very different.

Bankless DAO is introduced more in China now, and it is easy for people to go in and see it. As a result, some people mistakenly think that almost all DAOs are using Bankless DAO. In fact, most DAOs do not use similar gameplay, but do it in a way that may be smaller and more beautiful, more lean, relatively less open, but more efficient in terms of organizational efficiency.

For example, one DAO I'm currently heavily involved with is FWB (Friends with Benefit). It's big, with more than 3,000 members, but it's positioned as an "Internet City," an Internet city. Most members are considered citizens, and DAO provides a great space for you to learn, grow, and socialize. If you have some great ideas and want someone to work with, the DAO can support you to some extent. But you as a citizen, say a clogged sewer, you don't want to fix it yourself, so the real contributors are only 100 or so people. It is organized in a "municipal" manner, so it is relatively less open.

Several different teams are responsible for different things, such as Editorial, which is responsible for cultural output, Editorial, which is responsible for member welfare, and so on. You have the opportunity to participate in each of these teams, but FWB has a higher barrier to entry for each contributor and requires a larger commitment than the Bankless DAO, where you can express your commitment and be accepted. So FWB ACTUALLY HAS A LOT OF FOCUS, BOTH IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND IN terms OF THE WHOLE THING MOVING forward, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, a LOT OF FOCUS.

Just two days ago, I encountered a case that touched me deeply. Because FWB is so social, I was a little out of it at first, but then I got used to it more. I'm actually a bit of a terrorist myself. I'm not that social.

BlockBeats: But FWB is the social DAO.

Chao:Yeah, it's just a social DAO. It took me a while to get a feel for it. Later, I joined the Membership team to do some work as a non-core contributor.

There was one thing that happened. There's a new guy coming in, a lawyer for Web3. Lawyers in this direction are so rare that there are few in the world. The lawyer introduced himself at the reception, and he made it clear that he wanted to contribute, but was turned down. The lawyer said with a good wish, "I want to make a contribution." However, after discussion, everyone felt that it was not possible for the time being. He also used some words. The reason is that although FWB itself is doing physical, various compliance, there is a need for legal work, but now the team is formed.

For example, consider it as a municipal personnel, or as a background operation support, in fact, do not need so many contributors, in short, all kinds of tradeoffs feel not needed for the time being. However, the lawyer was very enthusiastic and said he wanted to open a sharing meeting in the community, but the result was not accepted. The reason is that there is not enough trust in his professional knowledge, in his personal level. It is legal, after all, and potentially risky if some of his responses are interpreted as community attitudes. So by the end of the conversation, it's like they're enthusiastic, but they don't want either, so I say you go to Syndicate DAO.

This is something I feel very deeply about. Although I am familiar with the organization form of FWB, I learned a lot from a specific case two weeks ago. I felt that, yes, DAO has DAO's own philosophy, logic and way of doing things. As long as everyone agrees, it doesn't mean who is right and who is wrong.

BlockBeats: Yes, I think FWB is an interesting product. I wonder if it has something to do with the Bright Moments DAO Chao recently participated in.

Chao:That's OK, but they definitely know each other, because there are very few DAOs that do really well, and they all know each other.

Their only connection is that they both emphasize the importance of seeing each other offline. It believes that the strength of a community is highly related to the mutual connection and trust of its members, not just the organization. For example, if most members of a DAO have these connections between Shawn and me, the vitality and combat effectiveness of the organization must be strong. They believe that meeting offline is one of the most efficient ways to build trust, so they put a lot of emphasis on chatting, seeing and getting together offline. There is some degree of similarity in the theoretical level, but there is no relation in the gameplay.

BlockBeats: I heard that SeedClub has a similar interview process. It seems that they have a complicated process to get in or to hire people.

Shawn:SeedClub must be the toughest. Because SeedClub also has the corresponding number of tokens to get in, but SeedClub as the DAO, it actually can't do much now. It has some simple voting for incubation projects, but other things I don't think are very participatory. As an incubator, it's like drawing 10 lines to do 10 directions, and it needs contributors, most of whom are "recruited" from the community. It is very strict indeed. Also two or three weeks ago, I may have sent a tweet. A friend came to me and asked me to give him some advice. He said that he wanted to join the SeedClub Community team, but he had been working in SeedClub for a long time and talked with the person in charge. I don't give him a chance, I don't even give him an interview, I don't even give him an interview. I said I couldn't help it. I couldn't get in.

So it depends on what level, if it's to get into a real incubator (team, it's difficult). The people who do the actual work of the incubator have very strict screening criteria for the hiring process, including your skills and time contributions, down to the number of hours or more per week. Because it doesn't feel like you can keep up with their demands for continuous output by chipping in time here and there, its considerations are different from most DAOs.

So your problem is that you need to divide it into two levels. If you just enter Discord and Public DAO, you can also enter it with your Token.

BlockBeats: It is difficult to get into the core incubator level.

Shawn:Yeah, it's a lot harder to do. Because it was originally a private DAO, it was a private DAO in the early days, and now it is in the process of transformation from private DAO to public DAO. So we say it's kind of like a corporate system, but it's actually a vestige of the previous private DAO, which is closed. The closed DAO, it's in the shape of the DAO, but there are still traces of the corporate system there.

Chao:It's not an interview. It's a DAO, not a company. But it does sort of look like a centralized team in the way it's organized. The reason for this is that they need to be efficient in the first place, which requires focus and faster push. Another is their philosophy of having enough contributors, which is similar to FWB in that the more contributors, the better. It's often talked about in podcasts, especially as a new DAO, that it doesn't need Discord to have too many people at first, just five of the right people instead of 1,000 contributors. Because if you give 1,000 people, you don't know how to organize them and you can't keep them. What it means is that if you have a few people who really agree with your idea, and they're willing to come and have a lot of input, and go forward together, those five people can probably do a great job. In fact, many entrepreneurial teams are very lean teams, five or six people can do things quite big. That's one of its ideas.

But it's not an interview concept, it's a gradual screening of people from the community. It's kind of an interesting process, not an interview for sure, but there's a lot of interviews, and it's kind of like an interview.

In addition to Jess being the founder, many people were gradually discovered from the community. For example, the co-creator of Jess is now a joint creator called Nicole d'Avis. Nicole was actually a member of the second sign-up acceleration team, and was hired straight after the acceleration. Nicole is now an important co-creator and a leader. Now she's doing a podcast, and one of the contributors to the podcast is Samsonite. I know this guy pretty well. This guy's a folk musician, and he's poor. He recorded a podcast himself. At the beginning, he didn't know what crypto was, so he thought it was easy to make money in this circle. He said honestly, "I'm here to make money." Then he came to SeedClub by accident. Later I felt that the atmosphere of these people was good and fun, so I stayed inside.

He was keen to join the SeedClub's second Cohort, which was about to be set up. But he did not have a project, so he forced an excuse, said he was his girlfriend's band event consultant, to apply for one. The second period because also relatively early, let him in. He could not participate in a project, but also felt that he could not be idle, so he organized a lot of activities such as ice breaking, and did a lot of work as an active member of the community, and gradually got involved. It happened that SeedClub started to make podcasts after a year of operation. He said, "I'm good at this later stage, I'm in music", so he was in charge of all the related things of podcasts.

Everyone's story is different. It's not like you're going through a recruitment channel or you're active in the community and you just jump in. You can certainly say that, but probably no one will listen to you.

Just now, Teacher Shawn said that one of his friends chatted with the community team. It should be Pandy, who is in charge of the community. The story of Pandy going to SeedClub is very interesting. Marijuana is supposed to be legal in Canada, and she was doing some folk media work on the marijuana industry. She hated Web 2 and believed that Web 2 exploited creators. She wanted to play Web 3 in November and December last year, which was later than most people, and had already happened after the Constitution DAO.

She just wanted to know about Web3, so she found some Kols on Twitter to send private messages. Jess replies, saying that her background is actually good for Web3, so check it out in Discord. She was at first as completely out of her depth as everyone else, and didn't know how to get involved, but this young girl had some thinking of her own, and she didn't get involved at the beginning, but she saw a lot of things, and she was very brave enough to come up with some ideas. Everyone felt quite reasonable, what she mentioned is really worth doing, then maybe you should come. Step by step, she was growing and learning and becoming a part of the community.

But SeedClub is not as open as Bankless DAO. You can come here whenever you want, maybe you haven't read the news these two days because you are busy. It's like I do it all the time, and when I'm busy, I can't keep up with the news. Then you come in a very community way, and when you come in, you become like an employee, because in order for it to be efficient, they need to make sure that you have enough time and commitment before they want you to do this with me. At this time, it has become a bit of a traditional company system, with 20 people at the core of the work. In fact, they have a clear division of labor and work together to push the matter forward slowly.

BlockBeats: When it comes to the topic of the company and DAO, according to your past experience, what are the most obvious advantages of DAO compared with the company?

Shawn:So let me talk about it first. Here are a few that I think are obvious from an entrepreneurial point of view. In the crypto or Web3 community, one is a start-up project. If it is an independent business project, it is often a small team across the country and jurisdiction. The company will face various problems such as where to register, such as which country to register in? How is the money managed? Do you trust? Therefore, it is a great challenge for small teams, entrepreneurial teams, especially multinational entrepreneurial teams. But from the perspective of entrepreneurship, DAO can solve this problem very well. As you move forward, you have a couple of startup teams developing the product, and you want the community to want the users to be part of the ecosystem.

This involves a lot. For example, everyone wants to hold the Token, at this time, it involves some flow of people, that is, the flow in and out of your DAO member, which is difficult for the company to do, including the continuous growth of the number of people, how to reflect the ownership? In a corporate system, unless you're a public company, you can't solve this problem. But in the early days, DAOs can solve these problems, so now many entrepreneurial teams want to use this form.

There is another obvious one in Web3. Many projects do not see its business model in the early stage, or it is public goods in the long term, it is certainly not profitable. The second is that the narrative is very large, but he did not have the ability to impress VC at the beginning, to get tens of millions of dollars of funds.

And then the third step is that the business model is very vague, and it's hard to tell investors right away what the expected return is. In this case, you can proceed from the beginning in the form of a DAO, and there is a lot of consensus.

BlockBeats: To mobilize the community?

Shawn:Yeah, they're going to come in, they're going to pay for it, they're going to contribute their brains, they're going to contribute their labor, and they're going to do it first. You have an MVP, you have a demo, you can build something, and then you can go to the capital market and you can get some money. But in the beginning, it's much more natural and very low-cost to use DAO to get this thing going. In fact, these two ways are very realistic, because I have a lot of personal involvement, and these two ways will often appear when I want to promote some entrepreneurial projects. It is relatively good to use the DAO form, which is easy to solve the problems faced.

BlockBeats: Why are these teams that already have a product or have funding still transitioning to the DAO format? Something like Mirror or Uniswap.

Shawn:Let me explain Mirror. Going back to the 30-page legal framework mentioned earlier, it actually uses this as an example to say that the comparison recommended for Web3 is: First technical team to set up a company, start to do your first generation product, at the same time do you go to set up a DAO community, because web3 products cannot be separated from the community, the community and not just in the DAO, and that you can't take it as a user, you should use it as your partner, you value chain is the together. Use DAO as a community, and then after the first generation of products comes out, you need to pass some laws to operate it as an overseas foundation. You need to dissolve the original company, and then give that product to DAO for operation. In this way, a better model can be formed in the end. It's just a legal framework to frame the thing that way. In fact, going back to the Mirror DAO, this kind of product will be promoted in this way.

Uniswap is actually of a similar shape, but its shape is bigger because of the DeFi DAO. As it moves forward, especially in the later stages, there's a lot of money in the coffers, and how can the community trust that money? Who can afford to manage the money? If it is a company system, I can give this money to you. Are your rules free to change? It will question a lot of things. In DeFi DAO, it is controlled by smart contract, so it is more reasonable to use the form of DAO than the corporate system.

So the answer to this question is to look at the different types of DAOs that are chosen for different reasons.

BlockBeats: It's more concrete.

Shawn:Everyone is going down the path of compliance. For several reasons. One is the immediate challenges, like how do you sign a contract? How do you hold some real world assets? These assets cannot be held without a compliant legal entity or legal entity. The second one you will be watching because there are more and more legal disputes now, including Uniswap and many other companies, many DAO defendants. People will be concerned that if there is no legal entity, at least in the American legal system, DAO member is likely to bear unlimited liability, so everyone hopes that there is a legal entity that can cover DAO, so it will become at least a limited liability like a company, and people will not panic so much. So I think both SocialDAO and DeFi DAO are doing this now, and it will be more obvious in the future. In the future at least we will think of the next bull market, and even the next several bull markets, whether the influx of money and talent, is an order of magnitude greater than the current one.

At the same time, it faces increased supervision. If a DAO is a non-human entity, it will face great challenges.

This is why everyone is taking the road of compliance. No matter what has been done or is being conceived, they will also consider how to change in the long run. Some DAOs may think that the current way may be OK for a few years, but it will not work in the long run. They will also want to use a new simulation entity to protect their DAOs.

I think this is also the reason why so many Legal DAOs have been established at present, because people think it is very necessary in the industry.

BlockBeats: The DAO established in China may be a little bit lacking in this aspect, right?

Chao:Domestic DAO is more from the cultural level, the feeling is quite different. Here, for example, there is a lot of domestic speculation, right?

BlockBeats: wechat group, right?

Chao:Yes, it may be its own DAO, but it may not be a DAO in any sense, and there are many. In some cases, it does have the shape of DAO in its architecture, but it lacks the core cultural factor. People are willing to do something together based on a common dream and common mission. In some cases, people are willing to do something together. It's a relatively high percentage. I've been in a lot of these groups. So in my opinion, one of the cultural differences is what I think is the main constraint on development right now.

Regulation is also important, one, because it hasn't been worked out on a global scale, and two, because there are rules in place and there are ways to follow them and do things at the same time. Although you may have to sacrifice something, you can still get it. However, if you only say that you can solve this problem from the technical layer, but no one believes your story from the cultural layer and social layer, and people think that "I'm here to make money, so don't tell me that stuff", there is no doubt that your DAO will not be able to do it.

Therefore, whether it is from the bottom culture, or really after joining the people can adapt to such a flat way, can be more active to do some things. So far it looks like there's an adaptation curve and a learning curve.

These aspects may need a long time to explore to evolve. But I'm still quite optimistic (about the development of DAO in China), because SeeDAO is doing very well, isn't it? Which means there's still a lot we can do.

BlockBeats: Let the content outweigh the form.

Chao:Yes, because DAO was not what everyone imagined: he went in, made some friends, and did it. All DAOs have to do is even harder than companies. Because the organization is new. People don't play like this. How do you motivate? How to manage? No one gets it, so it's harder, not easier, and it's not like you can just laugh it off.

So when it's time to bite the hard nut, the honeymoon period is over, the first three months people feel fresh and come to make friends. After three months and six months, when it's really time to bite, are there enough people willing to put in that much time and effort? Really recognize this thing, we can push forward together? Not to mention a lot of contributors, it's not easy to have 10, 15, 20 special core people who are willing to go with them.

No matter domestic or foreign DAOs, most of them will be eliminated at this stage, and few of them can really survive this stage. There is no doubt that the domestic, because may fry a little more money, may roll a little more severe, sometimes we may really be powerless. Many people are afraid to jump out of "All in Web3" just yet, and may need to keep Web 2 working. For example, working until 11 o 'clock every day, the most enthusiastic people certainly can't do much work. A combination of factors makes it harder, not easier, for us [domestically].

BlockBeats: Yeah. What does Mr. Shawn think? Do you have anything to add?

Shawn:In fact, in China, there are a lot of excellent talents pouring into some DAO such as SeeDAO. They feel that they have cultural recognition and consensus and can do things together.

But there is a big challenge. It is very different at home from Europe and America. For example, it is the programmer's circle, the programmer's circle in China's big factories, overtime is very common. Many of them would also like to join, most of them are looking for a "spiritual temple", or at least not to be left behind in the future, they want to know what direction the future might take. But asking me to contribute is really no energy, because my energy is exhausted, even the weekend will not have time. This is actually quite different from some of my experiences in DAOs overseas. In some overseas DAOs, not only programmers or product managers, or just doing research and development, most people still have quite a lot of free time. He can have a full-time job on Web 2 and still put a lot of energy into Web 3, which I think is quite different from the current situation in some DAOs in China.

This will also lead to the initial interest of people to get together and think that we can follow Bankless, Mirror, other DAOs to do, at the beginning of the model. But when you get to three months and four months, it's obvious that there's a challenge. You can't generate electricity with love, and you can't have chaos like this. It's not just a community, it's an interest group, it's got to have a governance model and structure that can compete with the corporate system. It actually takes a lot of dedication, a lot of effort. If you can't put in the time, do you need to have full-time people to do it, and if there are full-time people to do it, where is the money coming from?

At this point in time, I can feel that there are quite a few DAOs in China, and they may not be able to survive after facing some challenges.

BlockBeats: More consideration is given to the DAO's compensation or incentives. This is also a topic I'd like to talk about, that is, how can a DAO retain talents? Or how do you motivate your members to continue to contribute more? I was reading teacher Shawn's article about what went wrong with Bankless DAO. It said that because the Token price dropped suddenly, the number of people was still large, but the activity decreased significantly.

What do you think is the problem with DAO's compensation system or plan?

Shawn:As for the compensation scheme of DAO, I think the biggest problem is that the form of DAO at this stage mainly serves the encryption circle. Even though we're all trying to get out. The number of people DAO serves now may only involve tens of millions of people, the circle is still relatively small, and the revenue generated is relatively limited. This means that the real problem is that there won't be too many full-time jobs.

Many Dachang friends came in hoping to get a full-time job after entering Web 3, but the reality is that full-time jobs are rare. This is not what you expect.

There are now various evolution options for salary. I just read a tweet today, like the new CEO of SuShiSwap, $1 million package and $1.6 million severance package. This is exactly how public companies play. That means there are a variety of pay systems. What DAO calls "salary structure", we generally call it compensation structure. People generally don't mention salary. They think that salary is made by the company. In fact, the compensation system will gradually align with traditional companies.

It's also difficult because of globalization. Because contributors are from different parts of the world, programmers from the Philippines will have much lower salary requirements. Demands from Europe and America will be much higher. But at the DAO level it may be difficult to distinguish. The standard you set may come from a member in the Philippines who feels good, and the salary he gets may be much higher than the local salary, at least not lower. But European and American members will surely find it a hobby, a far cry from a full-time job.

Therefore, in the compensation system, DAO is constantly evolving, and there are all kinds of schemes.

BlockBeats: What does Chao think? Because I have read Chao's article about DAO incentive, including salary distribution.

Chao:Bankless DAO actually has an incentive system that I think is fine, but its problem lies in its philosophy. You can't call it a question. Its philosophy is to embrace all people, relatively divergent, so there are many projects, many contributors. But it is itself at least financially weak, so there is little incentive for contributors. In the past, strategically, when the market was good, they did not convert part of their wealth into stablecoins, which also caused some nervousness in the current bear market. The compensation that embodies it is not good enough, resulting in the loss of some contributors. In fact, the source of this problem I think the first DAO incentive.

Incentives must be more than just handing out money. There are two kinds of motivation, one is intrinsic motivation, one is extrinsic motivation. The extrinsic incentive is definitely giving out money or something else that people find valuable. Intrinsic motivation is when you acknowledge the event, and you feel that you want to change the world through it, or that you are doing something to change the world. This is important, and often more important. The reason Bankless DAO is able to survive on so little money is that most people are intrinsically motivated, actually intrinsically motivated to do this, not by how much money they expect to get this month.

But it's important for a lot of people to get paid, because there are a lot of underpaid people here. There is nothing wrong with wanting something in return for their contribution, but the former is more important. It is equivalent to saying, we are friends, I want to move, you say brother I will help you move, so we move home over the past string drink beer, we are very happy. If I told you, "Buddy, I'll give you 100 bucks to come over tomorrow and help me move my house for a day." You must have directly blocked it for me. You think this brother is too cynical. Give me 100 yuan and you want me for a day, right? So it's definitely different.

So DAO incentive system, must be combined inside and outside. But intrinsic motivation can't be designed. It's a journey. It's an adventure. Intrinsic motivation comes when your mission, what you do, attracts people.

Extrinsic incentives are pretty simple. Now it seems that the more appropriate way is a bit like the corporate system, like the Bankless DAO, which is financially vulnerable in a bear market. Everyone's happy, but the Treasury's not. A more efficient way might be to have a relatively fixed role, match a reward, let people take the responsibility, and then get paid accordingly. The Bankless DAO is also played this way, except that it has too many characters created because it does so much. So FWB, SeedClub, and the Mirror are all playing this mode. But there is another feature, even in this mode of play, the money is not much.

In FWB, for example, finances are transparent, and the key contributors are almost full-time. Incentive long product owner Mike, $20,000 a month. It seems like a lot, but Mike is very capable. If he goes to Facebook and Google, his salary will be much higher. And Alex Zhang, FWB's "mayor," the community's most important person. He is a very good Chinese investor, also is a full-time, a month only 12,500 dollars, not to mention in the United States, in fact, many large domestic companies are higher than it.

Because DAOs are still poor, especially community DAOs, their finances are tight. So you can't get rich playing DAO. Even if you do well, the social capital you get, the recognition from the industry, the improvement of industry cognition, the potential opportunities for you to capture the future direction, including the networking you have formed, etc., are definitely of high value. But make money, there is absolutely no money in this DAO.

BlockBeats: But people expect DAOs (which are still very high) to replace companies in the future. In the future, my job may be to do some bounty or make some contribution in different DAOs, and my life will be relatively free. According to the current situation, do Chao and Shawn think DAO can really replace the company's position in personal life in the future?

Shawn:The first is whether DAO can get out of the circle. If it is not to replace the corporate system, what is the scope of it? We are now trying to complete the circle, this is called the ideal, the goal. But if it doesn't work in the real world, or if it doesn't cover enough, it's impossible. At best, it's replacing the corporate system within the crypto community. May be short - and medium-term is to need a strong precondition.

Chao:The core is that there are not enough DAOs. Of course, this is also an out-of-circle problem. If there are enough DAOs in the future, there may be 100,000 DAOs and 1 million DAOs. In addition to those who are interested, those who really do things can get the corresponding salary to support their life.

Again, two levels. One layer is that there are many people who like to compare the compensation, or salary, earned from working in DAOs to the money earned from trading coins. This is definitely not appropriate. Especially in the bull market in the past, it was easy for you to make a lot of money. You think DAO would give me $4000 for working hard for a month. What's wrong?

So first of all, you can't compare it to speculation, because essentially you're working, you're just moving from a traditional organization to a DAO organization, you're not changing the nature of how you work for an organization. It's just that this organization maybe it's more open and mission driven. Both the DAO's recognition of you and your recognition of the organization will be higher. You're having a bad time over there, and you're probably having a good time over here, right?

On another level, there are many people who tend to compare DAO's income with those at the top of big companies, which is definitely not appropriate. We seem to feel that everyone is Ali's P7P8P9, which is a deviation. You said I added a DAO, must DAO Ben give me open salary open Ali P8, this is impossible.

It is not excluded that there are some people who make a huge cause in the early stage to get the Token, the future project has a huge development, the Token as an option may be realized in the short term. Most of it will be normal income. So if you just want to make a living, the DAO doesn't say you can't make money. Even in a bear market, it's possible to really get into it and make a living. I think it is possible to make a living, but it is impossible to make a fortune.

Try to keep DAOs and Crypto circles separate. The future may be that DAO does something that has little to do with Crypto, even though it uses Crypto technology. Now you can really do anything. The other day I saw a DAO doing a decentralized physical museum. It's a bunch of culture people doing it, it's just using blockchain technology, but it's really not the Crypto guys. A lot of DAOs are completely different people. The Arrow DAO, I'm sure you've seen, is some Turkish air hydrodynamics expert, some former NASA programmer. These guys aren't here to play encryption, they're just attracted by the Arrow DAO dream. These people think that in the past, I had to pay money to play the interest, but in DAO, I can earn some money without spending money. It's nice that we work hard for a common goal.

Shawn:Like the Arrow DAO, which makes flying cars. If you say your community or your interest group or you're starting a company and you're doing this, almost 100 percent of the investors are not going to look at it, they're not going to do it.

BlockBeats: Yes.

Shawn: Now we're going to do it in the form of a DAO. We don't need your money. We're going to make a prototype or a first-generation product by ourselves.

BlockBeats: Yes.

Shawn:So personally, I think what's interesting to me is the evolution of DAO in the organization form, the emergence of new forms or new DAOs, which is actually not related to the crypto community.

BlockBeats: So is the Token or the design of the Token important to the DAO?

Chao:I increasingly feel that DAO is better off without tokens. But without a Token you have to have something else, and eventually you have to have a governance certificate, otherwise it's not a DAO without governance. A governance certificate can be a Token, which is not transferable, but it can help you implement some governance votes and so on. Or it's an NFT shape, and there's actually a lot of scenarios here. Tokens now seem not to have a particularly high value in the operation of DAOs, but rather bring potential trouble, such as speculation, potential compliance issues, etc. Then you might actually be better off with a simpler solution to just let it fulfill some of its governance responsibilities. Of course, this is not absolute, and it may be years before we have a rough idea of what kind of DAO might fit into what kind of solution.

BlockBeats: Does this depend on the future development of DAO tools? That is to say, after the establishment of a DAO, there will be a whole set of DAO tools to provide you (services), no matter it is management of salary or member management, such as Dework and Utopia.

Shawn:For DAOs, including DAOs and companies to compare how they can improve their efficiency, it's really important to collaborate. The need for collaboration is higher in a decentralized organization than in a company.

These collaborations, we all want to implement through tools, because human implementation is too inefficient and waste resources. In the implementation of tools, including Dework, Mirror, Coordinape and many other tools are emerging, these tools are a very promising track in the future.

You're also seeing a trend where a lot of tools are being developed by DAOs, not by small startup teams, because the startup teams don't understand why they need [the tool]. An obvious example is Dework. A lot of Web 2 teams thought it was too easy, that we could do it in two or three months with our ability. But he doesn't understand why so many DAO, Web3 companies use Dework. Because Dework is first linked and second it is searchable. It's in the DAO that we do a lot of things, we make a lot of decisions, and a year from now looking back, who's going to take responsibility for that? Who's going to check the historical records? Because it's decentralized, there's no CEO. Vote we can go to Snapshot, lots of money outlet, why did this work cost $1000? That job only cost $50. Who took it? Why give it to him? The fact that records on Dework are all traceable is one of its core values. A lot of Web2 teams don't really understand this, because collaborative tools are more about solving Web3 problems.

BlockBeats: Yeah, I was talking to Lonis, the founder of Dework, and his idea was that he was going to do Dework because he had a problem with City DAO.Relying heavily on community feedback in the process, it was born as a very dao-oriented product.

Shawn:Yeah, I talked to him, too. He's from a similar background to me, and he used to be an A.I. entrepreneur. This project was probably his first Web3 project, and he didn't really have much experience. When he participated in the City DAO, he encountered many problems in the internal collaboration of the DAO itself, resulting in constant quarrels. "Why don't you have records? Why don't you make them public? Why aren't they traceable? He was like, is there a set of tools to do that? In fact, this tool is not difficult, because they are so many people from Eastern Europe Web2 directly from the side, themselves do not have blockchain development experience, can quickly make this tool. I don't think the difficulty of it is to say that it's not in any of these aspects of what needs analysis is. He really understood how to solve some of the pain points within the DAO collaboration.

BlockBeats: Yes. Ok, our time is almost up. I will ask you one last question. Please share one or two interesting DAOs that you have been paying attention to recently.

Chao:I've been busy lately, and haven't really seen any new DAOs. I'll say two. There's one called Story DAO. You've seen it, right?

Shawn:It's supposed to be a SeedClub incubated project.

Chao:I don't think it's incubation, I think it's just that the people who started it in Moments are very close to the SeedClub people, so I think they've been involved since the early days. But not incubation, just the people who started StoryDAO...

Shawn:Come to think of it, I'm in Story DAO too. But it seems I applied, and it ignored me. I think it was after the first issue when I joined. That's why everyone's talking and waiting to file for phase two.

Chao:You said it was not Story DAO, but Pentagraph DAO Phase 4. However, it was delayed so slowly that I suspected it was going to be yellow. I remember we both added it and we talked about it.

Shawn:right

Chao:Story DAO is either the biggest incubator or a new project. In fact, the project has been under internal control for several months, and it was actually published for more than a month. When it was launched, the SeedClub people actively interacted with each other and must have been obviously involved. I had a brief chat with Story DAO. The entire narrative of Story DAO is a mass innovation, which should have Hollywood resources. We really want to get together and make some really good movies, and maybe in a new way to be able to replicate the movie industry, or at least build an IP of our own. They have just started and are relatively closed, so you need to apply.

I spoke to a few of them and SeedClub was very involved in their launch. I've seen at least 10 other people tell this Story. There may be some differences in the details, but the Story DAO is the most decent in terms of resources, fighting power, and overall feel.

There's also a Bright Moments DAO that I particularly recommend you check out. It is both a DAO and an NFT project. People do NFTS all the time. Mint makes money, sells it, loses money, rots into your wallet. Mint itself seems less important. So it's trying to say that Mint is a culture, it's trying to attract more people, and they're doing an offline Mint experience. You Mint NFT must come to the scene to get it, the scene mint out. And in the beginning, it is very simple, is you come, you give mint out. As it has evolved, it has taken the whole Mint experience to a remarkable degree.

The last stop was in Berlin, and it was done city by city. In Berlin, I rented a particularly large one, not to be called Venue, which is an art space converted from a dilapidated, abandoned power plant with a giant screen and a small spot in the middle. When you get up there, it's the bright hour. The moment you step on that bright spot, the big screen in front shows the NFT you just Mint arrived at. I didn't experience it, because I wasn't there either, but I'm sure you had goose bumps all over the floor at that moment. And then immediately the lights come up and there's a lot of people cheering and celebrating this moment in your Mint, this is their experience in Berlin.

In London, because Berlin was so big, they probably felt that the last stop was too big to break through. Go for a small experience in London. When you arrive in London, go to a two-story building he rents, you chat on the first floor, he will introduce you, small talk, after a few minutes he will invite you upstairs, and will give you some gifts. Upstairs, there's a very small sort of magic box that opens up to you, and inside is a very small, inch-less screen that you need a magnifying glass to see your Mint NFT.

The moment you open the box, one of the pianos will play a piece of music that is calculated from the metadata in your NFT, which is equal to the algorithm generating a piece of music. With this music, you complete a Mint of your own. Of course there's no audience, because maybe British people are more private. That was the experience. Their Mint experience is great on its own, but I think it's really a DAO and NFTS are just a vehicle for it. Since we all bring people together offline to Mint and build a local community, why not turn this thing into a stronger community, we become a DAO or a SubDAO and build a lot of things ourselves.

So Mint is just that moment, and then we all get on with our lives. There was a lot of innovation going on. So far there are five cities, in LA, in New York, then in Berlin, then in the Metaverse there's another one, then in London and Mexico City. Every city was voted for by the public, and I participated in it. There should be in Asia, because it was discussed before, including Shanghai, but I think it's a bit overhang. Maybe Singapore, Tokyo, I think there is a high probability of one or two. I pay more attention to it as a strong offline connection of a DAO, each city has 1000 members, everyone will collide together, what kind of spark can be formed. I'm just starting to do this, and I haven't done much yet, but I think this trend is pretty impressive. I am very concerned, you can go and have a look.

BlockBeats: Ok, Story DAO and Bright Moments DAO, remember. What about Mr. Shawn?

Shawn:I also read some that I am interested in, but not as much as Chao.

For example, I also participated in The Space some time ago, including The mechanism design of their DAO. I also participated in The discussion and helped them to make some designs. It's also interesting. It's made by Matters Lab. Go do graffiti. As far as I know, it is the only game that uses Harberger Tax to achieve internal profit adjustment and profit distribution. It's a doodle, and each pixel of the doodle is an NFT. You can buy and sell NFT, which is financed by the Harburg tax. I'm particularly interested in seeing how it works through the DAO, how the mechanism adjusts, and then the development team adjusts to those parameters set by the DAO. It's actually a small society, so let's see how the game works.

But its commercial prospects or whatever, I don't know. But I think there are a lot of attempts to explore social experiments that have only been seen in papers, or in theory, and none of them say that a real game, or a low-barrier game, can bring these mechanics into it, which I think is a really great attempt.

BlockBeats: I know. OkOK talked a lot today, too, too much time. Special thanks to Chao and Shawn for their time and sharing their knowledge and insights about DAO with us. You're welcome to come back to our podcast any time you have a chance. So why don't we call it a day, and then we can talk later.

Chao & Shawn:Ok, thank you.

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