Original Interview: The Thread Guy;
Guest: Benjels, Co-Founder of pump.science and member of molecule;
Original Translation: zhouzhou, BlockBeats

Editor's Note: In this interview, we invited Benjels, Co-Founder of pump.science, whose presence at the Bangkok event with CZ and Vitalik brought a lot of attention to DeSci. The interview discusses the innovation brought by DeSci and its future development direction, mentioning the practical significance of raising experimental funds through token trading to drive the advancement of medical and longevity technologies. Benjels also shared new Alpha information, stating that pump.science will launch nearly 20 new experimental tokens around Christmas.

The following is the original content (slightly reorganized for better readability):

About Pump.Science

Thread Guy: Can you briefly introduce yourself and this project (pump.science)?

Benjels: I am a scientist, as well as a "yield farmer." What made me very dissatisfied is that there is no way in the market to cater to both of these identities simultaneously. For example, you can trade stocks of biotech companies, but their data release cycles can be as long as several months, lacking real-time updates and the continuous speculation you can engage in. Sports betting, on the other hand, allows you to bet on match dynamics in real-time. The scientific field does not have such a model, so we want to create this kind of "game" for the scientific domain.

Thread Guy: That sounds interesting. How does it specifically work?

Benjels: Specifically, our team initially turned compounds into NFTs, but later realized that people are more interested in "fungible tokens." The appeal of NFTs is limited, and most people prefer to own a part of the entire asset. So, we instead tokenized the intellectual property of drug compounds.

Thread Guy: So, is it splitting intellectual property into token form on-chain?

Benjels: Exactly. We represent the intellectual property of a certain compound in the form of tokens, which can be traded. Instead of buying stock in a biotech company where you would have to hold all of the company's drugs, now you can choose to invest in a single drug.

Thread Guy: Why hasn't anyone done this before?

Benjels: Mainly because blockchain and encryption technologies are relatively new, and the scientific community usually progresses slowly. Additionally, this involves complex legal issues, and we have spent a significant amount of money to ensure everything is legally sound by hiring lawyers.

Thread Guy: Where can you purchase the intellectual property of such a drug?

Benjels: You need to directly contact pharmaceutical companies to inquire about purchasing the intellectual property. This process involves lawyers and costs tens of thousands of dollars, very expensive because legal matters require lawyer involvement. What we are doing now is as simple as sending a token. Instead of drafting complex contracts for IP licensing, our solution is: directly send a token, which is our understanding of licensing.

Thread Guy: But hypothetically, could you acquire the intellectual property of nicotine in some scenarios?

Benjels: Nicotine is naturally occurring and cannot be patented. However, if you combine nicotine with other substances, such as mixing it with caffeine, this combination can be patented. What we are doing is tokenizing these patents or data and then testing their validity.

In simple terms, you can understand it like this: take life extension, for example; we test the compound's effect on animals. One area that particularly interests me is "nootropics," simply anything that helps the brain function more efficiently. Nicotine is a nootropic, caffeine is too, and in fact, there are many similar compounds that can help enhance brain function. We can also study this through animal testing, such as verifying if a substance can help mice think better through various mouse experiments.

However, in general, research on substances like nootropics is something we can work on, but currently, "life extension" is the easiest field to study because everyone ages, and the outcome of "living or dying" is the most easily understood result. Therefore, we can use this data to attract investors.

Thread Guy: So the process you're describing sounds like it required overcoming significant institutional barriers and eventually launching it on Pump.fun. Tell us about this process.

Benjels: We launched two tokens, Rif (Rifamycin) and Uro (Urokinase). At one point, Rif had a market cap close to $2.5 million. Overall, the trading volume of these tokens has surpassed $1 billion since launch. The compounds behind these tokens can be used to develop supplements and could potentially generate revenue through sales or patent licensing in the future. To attract more investment, we need to develop a set of data to prove the effectiveness of these compounds, such as significantly extending lifespan in animal tests.

After RIF and URO, when will the new coin be released?

Thread Guy: You already have two tokens, so when do you decide to launch the next one? How can we seize the early opportunity of the next one? Should we buy existing tokens instead? How did you consider this?

Benjels: The new token may be launched during the Christmas period. The first token is called Rif, so we will have a "Rif Christmas." We plan to release 1 to 2 tokens every day for about 10 days. One thing to understand is that we are bound by real-world limitations. Our collaborative lab resources are limited, such as equipment and the number of lab animals. If we were to fully open up like Pump.fun and allow everyone to submit experiment requests, our lab capacity would fall short by far. So initially, we need to keep operations small-scale. The goal is to gradually expand and eventually allow anyone to submit experiments, creating a frenzy similar to Pump.fun.

However, we will start with around 20 tokens, gradually showcasing their developmental paths, including tokens like Rif and Uro, with the ultimate hope of advancing to human testing stages and even developing into a product market where various supplements are sold. As for seizing the early opportunity, here's a little "inside info": we may launch 20 tokens during the Christmas period.

Thread Guy: Most token enthusiasts usually believe that the first token will be the most valuable. But the mechanism you're describing seems more like "survival of the fittest," seeing which drug performs the best. Do you think this dynamic will change? For those who want to get involved and delve deeper into the DeSci project, do you have any advice or guidance?

Benjels: I would advise everyone to pay attention to some metrics, the coolest thing about science is that data is generated in real time. Although it may sound a bit cumbersome, the compounds we submit already exist, and you can look up relevant information online, possibly even related scientific papers. Our goal is to turn geeks into scientists and also turn scientists into geeks.

The uniqueness of this project lies in its close connection to the real world; it is not just a "meme"; these could be potential life-extending drugs. You can learn about these compounds online, and we will also generate relevant data to provide early indicators of their effectiveness. For example, we are currently conducting two experiments, both involving fruit flies. We will not only record whether the fruit flies are alive or dead but also monitor their movement speed and distance.

Furthermore, our goal is to ride the current AI wave and create an AI bot that trades based on this data. Whether it is humans or AI trading, we do not mind. We recognize that the future may be an AI-driven trading era, especially in the scientific field. You can develop your AI agent to trade using the data we provide. This is our vision for the future, especially in science, a method that is almost impossible in the real world; thus, we must "gamify" this process.

Thread Guy: If there are two tokens now and there will be 20 tokens later, will the best-performing token be most closely related to the best test results?

Benjels: I will not directly comment on price, but the market will determine the outcome. However, it can be said that experimental data may indeed influence the token's performance.

How to Monetize Drug IP?

Thread Guy: Do you plan to sell these drugs to pharmaceutical companies?

Benjels: No, we will sell directly to consumers while providing clear data supporting its effectiveness. When you buy current supplements, it is difficult to know if they are beneficial to you or what specific effects they have because there is no dedicated venue to individually test the effects of these supplements.

We are funding research in a gamified manner and turning this data into part of our marketing, such as saying "this supplement has extended the lifespan of fruit flies by 50%, making them run faster and farther." Currently, no one can present similar research or conclusions. We hope to transform speculative behavior into research funds and produce products that can truly extend life.

Thread Guy: Considering you've been working in this field for two years, could you share how you got started? What is your team like?

Benjels: I've been working in the DeSci field for two years, and the Pump Science project was launched two weeks ago right before the Breakpoint conference. We introduced two tokens during the conference and have been working on developing this project ever since.

Thread Guy: Did anyone express doubts about your project? Especially when you first mentioned "science," what was the reaction?

Benjels: Initially, everyone thought it was pretty sketchy. When it came to "science," people often perceived it as those boring experiments, all very rigid stuff. But we want to make science less dull; you know, many people found science classes boring in high school, and we hope to change that perception.

Imagine directing that crazy crypto enthusiast energy towards science, enabling these individuals to participate and conduct some interesting experiments ultimately helping us extend life. That's the core of our project. It's actually a similar incentive theory to Polymarket: once you set the right incentives, people will find the right answers.

Thread Guy: The concept of "Polymarket" you mentioned is indeed very interesting, using incentive mechanisms to find the right answers. Applying this mechanism to science is indeed a very crazy idea. This is also a significant signal; this could be the path the next "Elon" is taking!

Benjels: I think we hope to bring real longevity experts into this project, impressing them with our generated data. But we don't want to start by saying, "Look at this crazy casino speculative game," as they would just turn away.

Most of the people I admire are in the longevity field. We will use research data to impress them, make them pay attention. Then they will be curious: "Who funded these experiments?" And we will tell them it's the speculative market, and this research approach is unprecedented.

Thread Guy: Will other researchers have access to this data, or is it exclusive?

Benjels: Currently, this data is exclusively generated by us, but this is precisely the pain point in the longevity field. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not consider aging a disease. If you want to develop a drug, you must target diseases such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc., because those are considered "indications."

However, since aging is not regarded as a disease or indication, you cannot develop a drug solely for life extension. This results in virtually no public market funding for such research, as agencies like the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in the U.S. do not invest in this area. VCs also do not fund such research because insurance does not cover the cost of supplements; only disease drugs are eligible for insurance coverage. Therefore, research funding in this area is limited.

I think the more you delve into the field of healthcare, the more you can see the truth. It's like The Matrix — no one is here to help you stay healthy. Everyone wants you to get sick so they can offer you a super expensive drug to cure you, which is quite scary.

But this is precisely the opportunity for transformation: we can fund the research ourselves instead of relying on VCs or the government. This funding may come from random "speculators."

Thread Guy: Clearly, I've seen a lot of value in coins, and I really wish there was a way for me to invest in an index of these things, or if there was a place for concentrated investment, whether it's something like a "DAO" or similar.

Benjels: I'll share some insider information here. last Wednesday, Shaw, Bao, and I had dinner, and they are planning to create a DAO fund. Although the details are not yet finalized, we are making progress, and there may be action soon. We will announce it on Twitter when the time comes. However, there is an issue: we don't want to both create a market and fund tokens in the market; that would look too suspicious. So, we are looking for an external team to operate this fund.

Thread Guy: So how does one submit a drug? For example, could Thread Guy submit a compound?

Benjels: Of course! If you have an idea, you can submit an application on our website. Currently, however, about 90% of the submissions involve illegal or controlled substances, such as THC and other drugs. Unfortunately, since a license is required for the lab, we cannot process these compounds.

Thread Guy: What kind of projects can be submitted? Is there anything left in the world that hasn't been researched?

Benjels: You might think that all research has already been done, but in reality, that's not the case. The core of science is to explore undiscovered questions, to find answers. That's the essence of science, to uncover those crucial questions that drive human progress.

So, our current idea is this: Right now, we only have a relatively simple form where you can submit your ideas, and the form is on our website. If you go to the pump.science website, it basically says "Submit New Experiment," and you can submit anything you want. We are collecting these good ideas, and then bringing these people in, and they become developers, what we call "Drug Developers."

They will submit experiments and own the intellectual property. So in the short run, we will keep it small-scale because there is a limit to the number of experiments we can handle. But the ultimate goal is to make it like pump.fun, where when the token reaches a certain market value, these experiments will be initiated, and we will handle all the operations. For instance, transaction fees will fund the research, and that funding will be sent to laboratories for research. Eventually, the experiments will go from worms, fruit flies, mice, to human testing, and then we can launch the product.

Thread Guy: How do you get approval to sell these drugs then?

Benjels: It depends on which country you are in; each country has different regulatory processes. Basically, where you manufacture the drugs, you must have a certification system like GMP. GMP stands for "Good Manufacturing Practice," similar to how the FDA inspects manufacturing sites to ensure compliance and proper documentation. We won't do this ourselves; we will outsource it to professionals to handle.

Thread Guy: Is this process difficult? Does it take many years?

Benjels: Yes, this process is quite complex and costly, but we won't be doing this part; we will leave it to the professionals. We will focus on building the token and data components, managing the data flow and operations of these experiments.

New Opportunities in the DeSci Field

Thread Guy: I found many different names related to Bio when researching, what is that?

Benjels: Binance has invested in Bio, which is essentially a DAO composed of multiple DAOs, with each DAO focusing on research in different areas. For example, VitaDao focuses on longevity research, and HairDao focuses on hair loss research. You see, the hair loss field has almost no funding, so there is a group of cryptocurrency investors who are facing hair loss issues, holding a lot of cryptocurrency, and they want to develop their own hair loss treatment.

Existing drugs on the market (such as Rogaine and Finasteride) have mediocre effects. So, HairDAO is currently doing well, with their token price also being high, and they are developing multiple drugs. You should look into it; they are really industry leaders.

Furthermore, there is also a DAO focusing on women's health, a DAO focusing on cryotherapy, and so on. These are all research fields that have not received funding support, but there is a lot of interest in these fields, so they have launched these DAOs to fund related research. We are very optimistic about the longevity field.

Binance has invested in Bio, which is an index token across all these DAO tokens. If you think DeSci has great potential but are not interested in hair loss or longevity, you can choose to invest in the Bio token because Bio is essentially the liquidity token for these tokens. I hope this explanation helps you understand.

Thread Guy: What is the focus of the longevity field?

Benjels: I think the key is to look at the United States' spending on healthcare. The U.S. spends 20% of its GDP on healthcare, which is huge. But if you look at life expectancy, our life expectancy is actually declining. We are spending more money but getting a shorter lifespan.

So the question is, why is this happening? You will realize that the entire healthcare system is not designed to make you live longer but to extract as much money from you as possible. This is the core of the longevity theory. If you truly care about health or want to live longer, then we have to take matters into our own hands. So, this is the foundation of the longevity field.

But we also believe that besides longevity, there are many other areas to explore. We are starting with longevity now because it is the largest market; after all, everyone cares about their lifespan.

Additionally, we are very excited about biohacking. This includes not only research on new types of drugs (nootropics) but also the large biohacking community on Reddit, where people experiment by taking various chemicals to see if different substances can improve their physical performance or health. You know, there are also methods like cold water therapy that people are trying in these extreme challenges.

Indeed, many people have tried biohacking to enhance their physical performance before. Now, in addition to fitness enthusiasts who want to get stronger through exercise, there are also many people focusing on events like triathlons, wanting to improve their running speed. This involves a field known as "Performance Enhancing Drugs" (PEDs), but research in this area is still limited. So, many people have started self-experimentation, and some even go as far as sourcing drugs from China to test on themselves. Therefore, our idea is that before we start self-experimentation, we should do some animal trials.

Thread Guy: Would you recommend some private "nootropics" products?

Benjels: Yes, my favorites are Methylene Blue, which is not a "drug," nicotine lozenges, which work well, and Modafinil, also an excellent choice.

Thread Guy: What about Lion's Mane?

Benjels: Lion's Mane is a type of mushroom that can help with neuron regeneration, benefiting brain cells. So, it's great, but you may not feel the effects immediately; the effects of the other drugs I mentioned will be more pronounced.

Thread Guy: When will you open a drug store on the Pump.Science website?

Benjels: Actually, I also feel that this has been delayed, which is a bit excessive. We expect to launch the store in the first quarter. Although everyone is against roadmaps, this is a real development. We are not the kind of internet company that can innovate casually; we do physical operations. We are working with some actual manufacturers to build a supply chain and at the same time set up an e-commerce platform. We also plan to introduce a token mechanism where when products are sold, the tokens will be repurchased and burned, causing token deflation and thereby increasing the price.

Thread Guy: Suppose you launch a certain drug, such as nicotine (although we can't do that right now). If I buy a large amount of it, causing a crazy price surge, and then the sales are booming. As a token holder, do you expect the token price to rise because intellectual property is now more valuable, or because of the buyback and burn mechanism? How does this process work?

Benjels: This question is indeed a bit complex, and lawyers usually advise me to be cautious in my words. I will try to explain carefully. If token holders vote to approve and decide to engage in buyback and burn, then when the product is sold, the generated profit will be used for token buyback and burn, causing a deflationary effect, thus increasing the token price. So, if enough token holders vote to agree to this scheme, the buyback and burn mechanism will take effect. This way, the token's value can gradually increase. It is important to note that this mechanism cannot be set up from the beginning, but if decisions are made through group voting, some legal risks can be avoided.

Thread Guy: If I want to know about the 20 new drugs you are about to release, how can I find relevant research materials? For example, if I want to learn about the specifics of these 20 drugs, how can I find related research and data?

Benjels: We will disclose the identities of the drugs before their release, so you can conduct some investigation in advance. However, although we plan to release approximately 20 drugs, we are currently gathering data from the laboratory. So it is not yet certain whether all of these drugs will be effective. Nevertheless, we will release information on the compounds to be tested soon, then begin to open the curve mechanism similar to 'Pump.fun', and the token will start trading. Once the market cap reaches the target, the experiment will commence.

Thread Guy: Do you think I should try to launch a "Thread Guy" themed drug, or focus on researching how to submit drugs?

Benjels: Of course you can try, even if you only have the idea of nicotine, you can start from there.

Thread Guy: Can you give us some specific advice on how to maximize returns from this opportunity? What are the next steps, and what are the key points to focus on?

Benjels: I can introduce Pump Science because I am currently working on this project. I think the most important point is that everyone is very fascinated by AI right now, indeed, AI is cool, as it can interact with automated systems, and even let them trade.

But to be honest, science is the force that drives societal progress. Although it may sound like a cliché, we live in a physical world where technological innovation can change many things, such as the healthcare industry. When people look at cryptocurrency, they often see it as mere speculation. However, we have the potential to truly change everything, especially in vast fields like medicine.

Thread Guy: So how do scientists view this?

Benjels: Scientists' views vary widely. Some scientists are very excited about it because we have already funded many researchers, and they are thrilled about this funding as it may be something they could never obtain through traditional channels. On the other hand, some scientists are skeptical because cryptocurrency carries a certain stigma in their eyes. So, we need to try to change this perception with the goal of producing real research outcomes and developing meaningful products. If the scientific community is willing to embrace it, great; if not, that's okay too. However, I believe that attitudes are slowly changing.

Thread Guy: You mentioned that many people in "Trap Science" find you suspicious. So, how can I judge whether you or other DeSci platforms are suspicious?

Benjels: I suggest you look at on-chain transaction records to see how funds are flowing. Check if the funds are genuinely being invested in scientific research and not wasted elsewhere. You can also pay attention to the projects that interest you and see how well they are being executed.

Currently, people are less concerned about past plans and more interested in "what have you done today." For this cycle, I believe everyone should maintain high expectations for all projects. If a platform is always hiding progress, it likely has issues. If we conduct experiments openly and transparently, showcasing real-time progress, it indicates that we are serious and investing the funds appropriately. Our current practice is to publicly display the progress of all experiments to ensure that the funds are genuinely being used for research.

Thread Guy: With so many new concepts happening in the DeSci field, what should people care about the most?

Benjels: If you care about living longer, about not dying, projects like Brian Johnson's are what you should focus on. If you truly want the possibility of living longer, you must take matters into your own hands. Your doctor won't come to save you, and the hospital won't save you. They will cure your illness after you have paid a large sum, but they won't help you prevent it.

It's like if you enjoy being alive, want to continue living tomorrow, and still find life interesting at 80, then you need to make some changes. If you want this choice, we need to make a change. So, we will do our best, but we need everyone's help. If you just want to live until 80 and then peacefully depart, that's fine too; but we are here for those who want to "live forever."

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